Ryan Neil's Bonsai Mirai

[Smoke]

I would really like to skew this thread to something that I have had some trouble with as I spend more and more years in bonsai.. and that is the concept of FAIRNESS.....The following statements are or can be rhetorical..

How is it fair that a huge amount of bonsai artists do not have the money or access to such magnificent material. I personally cannot just drop $2000 on bonsai material. I also, cannot just go into an area to collect. Up here in the the Northeast part of the county, there are seemingly very few places to collect outstanding material. Has bonsai become a situation like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I watch as masters post masterpiece after masterpiece and have outstanding pre material as far as the eye can see. Yet, most people will never know what this is like simple because of monetary and geographical challenges. Personally, it seems like every year, my limit to what I will spend needs to get higher and higher to attain good material..$200, 300, and at last count $400. It is becoming apparent that yes, bonsai does take talent and a good eye. However, the monetary and geographical challenges seem to weigh very heavily as far as one’s progression. I am a long way off from retirement.. I need money to live and cannot sink fortunes into the art that I love. I need to spend countless hours searching for that one piece of material that is reasonably priced and has the potential to become a great bonsai. Then spend years training it.

Everytime a see any well crafted bonsai. I am always in awe of it's beauty. Whether it is a 300 year old masterpiece or a bonsai that was started from a $20 piece of material that someone spent years training it. With which one does the heart of bonsai reside... probably both. However, which one is attainable by only a few select people..the 300 year old masterpiece.

This is all just me typing a rant. There really is not an answer that can be given. It is just how I see it, which I believe, is actually how it is.

Rob

Fairness. I have to chuckle. Like all things in a capitalistic society, there are haves and have nots. I did not think it possible but the word fair has now been added to the bonsai vocabulary. Not only that a certain amount of whining to boot. While on the one hand I can totally sympathise with your post. I too am in the same boat. I would never verbaly speak of trying to make the availibility of certain bonsai material available to those less fortunate, but that is almost a post that one would see in the Karaoki Bar.

The correct answer would be to try and figure out a way to make your income go higher so you can afford a $2000.00 tree. I have been to Oregon Bonsai, I have seen a few acres of material, and have the photo's to back that up. Trust me to drive 800 miles back home without a tree almost made me puke!

 

[october]

Holding a BA in Sociliogy.. I am well aware of our capitalistic principles. I did say that my rant was rhetorical.. There are no answers, just me typing an assessment of what I see in bonsai. I have always been an advocate of fairness. There are poor, starving homeless animals, vets and other people. Yet, more and more money is spent giving people like the Kardashians, who are already rich, more shows and more opportunities to make even more money. lol.. Now we are sounding like we need to take this to the Keraoki bar.

I, in no way, want to see bonsai nurseries giving away material or not setting prices so they can make a living. The season I spent working at the bonsai nursery was very interesting and enlightning. As much as it is an art, it is a business. They have to make a living. There are no answers. It is just a cycle that is self perpetuating.

I rarely argue opinions. However, I will argue when something is factual. Can fairness be argued, not really. However, does my assessment properly portray the situation I was writing about..absolutely.

Rob

 

[Smoke]

Holding a BA in Sociliogy.. I am well aware of our capitalistic principles. I did say that my rant was rhetorical.. There are no answers, just me typing an assessment of what I see in bonsai. I have always been an advocate of fairness. There are poor, starving homeless animals, vets and other people. Yet, more and more money is spent giving people like the Kardashians, who are already rich, more shows and more opportunities to make even more money. lol.. Now we are sounding like we need to take this to the Keraoki bar.

I, in no way, want to see bonsai nurseries giving away material or not setting prices so they can make a living. The season I spent working at the bonsai nursery was very interesting and enlightning. As much as it is an art, it is a business. They have to make a living. There are no answers. It is just a cycle that is self perpetuating.

I rarely argue opinions. However, I will argue when something is factual. Can fairness be argued, not really. However, does my assessment properly portray the situation I was writing about..absolutely.

Rob

Not wishing to beat this horse, I fail to see how your opinion on this makes any sense????

so....what you mean is...you had an inward thought and mistakenly it became a outward thought? That about it?

 

[october]

No... This thread turned into a Who is the best collector in the world and this is the best material and this is not. Although off topic, all points are worth discussing. I am simply saying that there are more important issues. Trees inspire me and I am in awe of them, not necessarilly the artists.

Also, as far as doing somthing to augment my income..Working long hours to support a bonsai habit would have an opposite effect.. You could afford more, however, you wouldn't have the time to tend to the trees as they need to be tended too. I sometimes see why bonsai is practiced by many retirees etc...

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Alright I wanna know what each of you see as "revolutionary" ...

I ask because if anything is "revolutionary" it is using the internet to publicize themselves heavily.... ok ... that's something new .... Nothing they are doing is "revolutionary" ...

Some please tell me what is so amazing... cuz I'm not seeing it... and that could easily be my own failing... and I'm willing to admit that...


I get the feeling that my idea of great material is VERY different to many other people .... and that's ok I guess .... Honestly a lot of the material I have doesn't even meet my own criteria.... but some of it does ...

let's be really clear here... I'm NOT saying that a vast majority of it is not very good...

I just want to know what everyone is drooling over... Why are you all so excited wetting yourselves all of a sudden ???

I'm not talking in terms of marketing or publicity. When I say "revolutionary," I'm speaking in regards to bringing the idea of "Japanese-quality" bonsai to the U.S. I don't want that to be confused with some opinion that Japanese bonsai is superior to any other style, but I do admire it. When I look at Ryan's trees I see a unique style that I haven't witnessed anywhere else. I can only imagine that a lot of his inspiration came from Japanese bonsai, specifically from Mr. Kimura.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but perhaps you're not seeing it because you don't want to. I get that way a lot, so I understand if that's the case. I'm definitely not trying to say that what you're saying is merely an emotional response or that you haven't put any thought into it, but sometimes people don't want to see things from different perspectives when they're focusing on their own system of thought. Does this make sense or am I digging a big hole?

I can assure you that my panties are dry. I'm not going to pack my bags and throw a ton of cash down on some of their trees...but it's fun to see something like this evolve and not know what kind of change it's going to bring.

 

[Klytus]

You think there could be regulation to protect the wilderness from unscrupulous capitalists,sort of like a collection permit that must be bought as well as ownershp papers bought from and issued by a federal department with a tax levied at the POS?

Maybe with ID chips for track and trace.

It could be done with a drill,the chip,and sealed in with epoxy.

Trees offered or sold without such things could be reportable,all kinds of possibilities for the provision of growth for federal departments.

No grandfathering!

If it's for sale and is native or naturaliized you gotta chip it and cough up the moolah or face financial ruin.

Merely writing these new laws coud keep crack team of employees busy for a long time.

Protecting America's flora,one trunk at a time.

The guilty would say,'Ah,but it is Art!' wherupon the enforcers would counter with,'Nope,an unregistered trunk.'

 

[Jason]

You think there could be regulation to protect the wilderness from unscrupulous capitalists,sort of like a collection permit that must be bought as well as ownershp papers bought from and issued by a federal department with a tax levied at the POS?

Maybe with ID chips for track and trace.

It could be done with a drill,the chip,and sealed in with epoxy.

Trees offered or sold without such things could be reportable,all kinds of possibilities for the provision of growth for federal departments.

No grandfathering!

If it's for sale and is native or naturaliized you gotta chip it and cough up the moolah or face financial ruin.

Merely writing these new laws coud keep crack team of employees busy for a long time.

Protecting America's flora,one trunk at a time.

The guilty would say,'Ah,but it is Art!' wherupon the enforcers would counter with,'Nope,an unregistered trunk.'

Huh.......

 

[Klytus]

Capitalism=Literally fighting for control of dwindling resources,usually already owned by others.

My great leap forward could prevent Mr Pall turning up with his shovel and providing wealthy people with great material to kill.

And that after all is a grievance worthy of petitioning.

Of course trunks thinner than an inch would not attract the ire so it's Bunjingi all the way.

 

[Smoke]

No... This thread turned into a Who is the best collector in the world and this is the best material and this is not. Although off topic, all points are worth discussing. I am simply saying that there are more important issues. Trees inspire me and I am in awe of them, not necessarilly the artists.

Also, as far as doing somthing to augment my income..Working long hours to support a bonsai habit would have an opposite effect.. You could afford more, however, you wouldn't have the time to tend to the trees as they need to be tended too. I sometimes see why bonsai is practiced by many retirees etc...

OK now it makes sense. I agree.

I also agree about the retirement thingy.....

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I'm not talking in terms of marketing or publicity. When I say "revolutionary," I'm speaking in regards to bringing the idea of "Japanese-quality" bonsai to the U.S. I don't want that to be confused with some opinion that Japanese bonsai is superior to any other style, but I do admire it. When I look at Ryan's trees I see a unique style that I haven't witnessed anywhere else. I can only imagine that a lot of his inspiration came from Japanese bonsai, specifically from Mr. Kimura.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but perhaps you're not seeing it because you don't want to. I get that way a lot, so I understand if that's the case. I'm definitely not trying to say that what you're saying is merely an emotional response or that you haven't put any thought into it, but sometimes people don't want to see things from different perspectives when they're focusing on their own system of thought. Does this make sense or am I digging a big hole?

I can assure you that my panties are dry. I'm not going to pack my bags and throw a ton of cash down on some of their trees...but it's fun to see something like this evolve and not know what kind of change it's going to bring.

this explains a lot .... as I have seen those "japanese quality" , by which i assume you mean "highly refined" , trees in the US .... a lot of them are hiding in backyards in CA and other parts of the country.... so not seeing them doesn't mean they don't exist ... and those that are not quite "japanese quality" are close and with a little effort can reach that level.... those are usually owned by owners who actually have jobs ... you know like most of you ...

ZOMG crazy .... people with HUGE swaths of time to work on bonsai can create great trees from great material... "revolutionary" for sure.....

Ask your selves this one obvious question .... what do all your favorite bonsai artists have in common??? I'll give you a hint... they make up less than 1% of the bonsai community .....

what kind of change can it bring??? like Jason said .... everyone who can afford the material already knew about it and was buying it .... if people aren't buying the material then they are buying the classes??? how is Ryan any different than Boon?? you guys remember Boon right.... he's still alive ...

funny thing is most people think I have something against them .... and I don't .... I happen to think Ryan is a nice person .... and I have never met Randy so I can't speak to his in person character .... I however presume him a very pleasant person .... hell I hear I'm even a nice guy in person [no really someone said that once]

so who am I really irritated with??? The American bonsai community that's who ... ever so willing to hop on the next bandwagon ....so easily dismissive of what has come before.... very American of them in the whole "but this is new, so it's the bestest besty ever!!!!!"

my god someone please psychoanalyze me ..... I MUST be insane....

 

[JasonG]

I'm not sure why this thread had to go all negative. I've spent a day with Randy at Oregon Bonsai and spent an hour or so at Ryan's place (didn't get to meet him unfortunately, since he was out of town). I think I even got coffee at that place.

The video is fine but doesn't really do the material or Randy justice. He's a hell of a nice guy and I wouldn't describe him as arrogant. The material present at both their places is phenomenal and I didn't see a lot of crap that shouldn't have been collected. Maybe you saw the bad truckload, Ang3lfir3.

Eric, No one was trying to diminish Dan's accomplishments. (you seem like an offended acolyte....maybe I'm reading that wrong) Dan has great material at Elandan, but he has a different aesthetic than what I saw at Ryan's. (note I didn't say better or worse...just different) Besides beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right. That probably goes for even collected material.

I think the video was shot in the spirit of being a promotional video....Maybe self promotion and the whole "spirit" of bonsai is like oil and water....just some random thoughts....

Hey Jason, This thread took a negative turn when I came in and corrected some wrong information, I will admit I should have just left it alone and not got sucked into it BUT whats the fun in that

I didn't see where anyone said anything bad about Dan. I think Dan is a good guy and I will leave it at that. I am gald you got to go to Ryans and meet Randy, bonsai porn for the day! haha

OHHHHHH so my money isn't green enough .... that's good to know... you aren't helping things

so the plan is reach out to people ... he brought "unwanted" trees to a public auction ... as a first introduction ... nice way to tell people "this unwanted stuff is what you people are worth"

Let me put this another way that hopefully the point gets across. Anyone who is already a serious bonsai collector in the NW and specifically the Seattle area and Canada have already been buying trees from Randy BEFORE the auctions. There are very few people in the NW who spend descent money on trees, all of them were already customers.

Knowing not much money was going to be spent on quality material I was asked by the auction team to bring trees in a certain price range. The idea was to introduce collected trees to the auction and bring a new dimension to a somewhat stale event. We succeded and it went well. What is sad about the whole event is that the money that is spent on mediocre at best trees, that nursery spruce with the worst nebari in the world went for 2k?????That was a $400 tree at best. Unreal.

Just like the post of yours that brought me into this and the one's quoted in this reply, please have your facts straight before posting. You obviously know nothing about what is going on south of you. Its a shame really, you would learn ALOT!!!!

I am offended .... Maybe people don't realize that NOT collecting that much material is a choice ... one of conservation and respect ... it is certainly NOT a lack of skill ... material that isn't interesting is left in hopes that one day it might just become interesting ...

So, you basically are saying that Randy has no respect of the land, is collecting too much material and is grabbing everything...... Nothing could be further from the truth.

For every tree that is collected there are 1000's that do not get collected period. If there is someone that has the utmost respect for the land it is Randy more than any other person I have met. More important is that the respect for the health and aftercare of the tree is extremely high hence the 98% survival rate. Name someone else with that level of success- you can't. Yes he collects a lot of trees, more than anyone else and there is nothing wrong with that. We won't run out of trees EVER, the number of trees left uncollected is astronomical and his love for the tree and the land ensure's that it will remain that way.

Don't give us the " material that isn't interesting is left in hopes that one day it might just become interesting" BS..... we all know better than that. Trees in the mts take decades, many of them to become interesting.....I know better than that.

I get a little offended when out of the blue you all turn into giggling school girls wetting your panties over something that is in no way different from things that came before it....
I know ima jerk... and I am sure no one respects me.... but I speak my mind... and that's more than some people

Everyone is excited because the American scene of bonsai has just made a huge jump forward. The exciting part is that it IS totally different than what has come before in many ways!! On every level it is much improved and has lifted bonsai in America to a whole new level. The level of collected material is at an all time high right now. The numbers of healthy collected trees available to the public is at a place it never has been before. Randy is a self taught collector, everything he does he has learned on his own. He does things much different than the old school collectors and the results show for that. He doesn't profess himself to be the best, the rest of the bonsai world has done that for him.

We now have someone that can take those trees and make them the best they possibly can be, period. There are people coming from all over America and Europe to work with Ryan, he has apprentice's from America and Europe that are full time in the nursery. He has techniques that are not seen outside of Kimuras garden, he has material that is second to none and the health of the collected trees is simply amazing. There is not another garden in America that can compare to Bonsai Mirai and what he is building, the level of passion, skill, marketing abilties and overall bonsai skill is something that America has not seen before, at least on this level. This is new, couple that with the growing community of bonsai and you have a bunch of people that are finally excited! I offered to have you down several times to show you what was happening down here but you would never come.

Look, I don't want to come across as a dick, but when many things are getting tossed out there and there is nothing to support those claims or opinions and I know better than it pisses me off and I will come back with the truth and set things straight. I am sorry if you or others get offended but its the way it is. If you don't believe me then read Walter Palls blog, read the bonsai magazines from around the world, Japan, Europe, America.....the proof is out there. Get in the car go for a road trip, visit these places and see for yourself.

Watch out for the future, there are BIG HUGE events in the planning that have never been done in the US.....pay attention over the next few years....bonsai is on the move up.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Revolutionary, fairness, anti capitalist,1%...How many posts away is the suggestion of an "Occupy Oregon Bonsai" encampment...?
Its exciting to see bonsai improving and folks in the PNW raising the bar. Lots of good will come from this in the bonsai world.

 

[buddhamonk]

I get a little offended when out of the blue you all turn into giggling school girls wetting your panties over something that is in no way different from things that came before it....


I know ima jerk... and I am sure no one respects me.... but I speak my mind... and that's more than some people

Dude you're the one with PMS, buy some advil or something... just speaking my mind

 

[Ang3lfir3]

@Jason -- No offense was taken toward Dan... honestly he wouldn't think twice about it (he's far wiser than I may ever be)

@Jason Gamby -- I won't respond to your entire post simply because as I type all day... my hands are tired ... however you and I both know that not ALL serious artists and collectors in the PNW are/were buying ... nothing wrong with that and more power to those that do ... but doing so doesn't immediately guarantee anything ... and don't think for a second that I have some limited exposure to the bonsai world near me... that's simply untrue

@buddahmonk -- +1 for speaking your mind


I declare this pot officially stirred .... I'll let you all get back to your regularly scheduled reading

 

[edprocoat]

I was wondering if these places are private lands that you collectors get permission to collect trees on? The reason I ask is that public lands are usually protected and cutting a tree out of the ground would probably land you in the ole hoosegow, or a major fine $$ at the very least.

ed

 

[Smoke]

Nah, out here on the west coast we just yank trees out by the hudreds like loli pops. Most of the western states can no longer afford forestry officials so it is open season on anything growing in the mountains!

Come on out Ed I can take you to a place right near the foresty shack in Yosemite that has a couple killer pines growing nearby that you can dig very easily. It seems that every place you stick a shovel a killer bonsai pops out.

Just watch out for Grizzly Bear they are everywhere.

 

[Smoke]

@Jason -- No offense was taken toward Dan... honestly he wouldn't think twice about it (he's far wiser than I may ever be)

@Jason Gamby -- I won't respond to your entire post simply because as I type all day... my hands are tired ... however you and I both know that not ALL serious artists and collectors in the PNW are/were buying ... nothing wrong with that and more power to those that do ... but doing so doesn't immediately guarantee anything ... and don't think for a second that I have some limited exposure to the bonsai world near me... that's simply untrue

@buddahmonk -- +1 for speaking your mind


I declare this pot officially stirred .... I'll let you all get back to your regularly scheduled reading

It seems that soon you may be ducking into that pot and pulling the lid on for cover!

 

[rockm]

"so who am I really irritated with??? The American bonsai community that's who ... ever so willing to hop on the next bandwagon ....so easily dismissive of what has come before.... very American of them in the whole "but this is new, so it's the bestest besty ever!!!!!"

Sorry, can't let this little gem go...What a completely superior, creaky, self-involved statement. The thought that YOU have such an expansive, worldly view of bonsai that all others HAVE to be wrong because YOU can't see the forest for the trees. That being excited about something is somehow "dissmissive of what's come before." Give me a freakin break...

I've been doing this for more than 20 years now. I've seen a raft of fly-by-night operators, good collectors, horrific collectors, fads, and other stuff. I do not jump on bandwagons. I simply acknowledge progress when I see it. Increasing awareness, better stock, more of it, professional instructors with a big-picture plans ARE innovations. Like it or not. Yeah, Boon and Dan Robinson have also been pioneers. They have contribued and continue to contribute, but they are hardly the only game on the block these days. Simply because I welcome more people willing to take a big time roll on bonsai hardly means I'm turning my back on anyone.

BTW, if you can tell me where I can buy a Dan Robinson-collected tree east of the Mississippi, let me know. I'd be more than willing to have a look.

 

[fore]

I'm not peeing myself. Just acknowledging good material. I picked up a Ponderosa from Jim Doyle in Pa. It was tagged as a "WP" tree, which I guess is Walter Pall. The tree wasn't all that expensive, but pretty superior to any of the collected pondies I've seen here in the east. While that's not saying all that much, I've been getting good, old collected material for quite some time. I'm not a newbie to buying it or appreciating it.

It was a good tree, period. I'm sure that ponderosa has more than a few equals out west, but no one is shipping them east. That is kinda revolutionary, although not unprecedented.

The thing is the guy is marketing himself as no other artist or collector has done. While that is a good/bad thing, it certainly raises the bar for others.

I have no way of knowing HOW the tree was collected, though. That's a bit of a conundrum for me. I am a proponent of responsible collecting. Perhaps that is another selling point for collectors. I know I feel extremely comfortable buying from Andy Smith, given his long history of knowledgeable collection...

Exactly my experience too Rockm. I've bought from both Andy and Walter/Jim. I bought two really nice PP's, labeled WPs too, last Dec. in Pa. and what I bought, and the material I saw was very impressive. Prices for smaller material, but still very nice was quite affordable imo. I personally can't wait till I get a chance to visit Ryan and Randy.

 

[Walter Pall]

With amusement I am following this thread. It is amazing how much a simple promotional video can stir up the whole place.
My take on the video is that it is clearly meant to promote Ryan's name and business. The message is supposed to be "a world class stylist like Ryan and a world class collector like Randy are unbeatable". I can only endorse this statement. Unbeatable where? Well, according to what I have seen so far in America and in Europe, may well be even in Asia. To me this is no surprise at all. I knew this since more than three years. Now it's becoming reality. It will most certainly change the scene in my opinion. We will get used to it.

Regarding WP trees at Nature's Way Nursery I admit that WP stands for Walter Pall. I have the honor to be the scout for Jim Doyle. I am searching for outstanding material for affordable prices around America for Jim. So WP means 'hand picked by Walter Pall'.

Regarding fairness: Yes, the world is unfair. There are a few who have a lot and many who have so little. And it should be the other way round. I call for occupy Woodstock V. What is this? It is an event, a happening with a bombastic name at Natures Way Nursery in Harrisburg, Pa. It has by now lived up to the name and Harrisburg is getting ready for a great weekend.

There are about 300 collected trees already there. A few dozen are outright world class, many very good, all hand selected by myself. There are abpout 150 trees in the range from US$ 45 to 600, about 50 from 600 to 1,500 and a cople dozen over that. Everybody can find himself a genuine American collected tree whidh he can afford.
They give guarantee for recently collected stuff as long as you leave it in the nursery - money back or credit in case the tree did not make it. There are over 100 collected trees which are very well established and can be worked on right away.

I am not aware whether there is a nursery in all of America which has such a lot quality collected stuff to offer. East of the Rockies Nature's Way Nursery is THE source for quality collected trees.

In spring of 2012 there will be about 200 or more new trees again. Woodstock V as part of the International Bonsai Academy with Walter Pall will be held from March 30 to April 2 again. On April 2 there will be two workshops again, one with ponderosa pines.

It is indeed most unfair that one single nursery should have the largest offer of quality collected stock east of the Mississippi. I think this place should be occupied and relieved of most trees. Folks should take advantage of the sales promotion discount for this weekend only.
They can also protest by attending the International Bonsai Academy from Friday, to Sunday and possibly the workshop on Monday.
On Saturday we have the by now legendary Saturday Night Noise at the nursery. Everybody will bring a musical instrument and we make a lot of noise together while drinking beer.

The International Academy can be attended by protestants in several ways:

regular member for one or more days
silent observer for one or more days
lurker for 30 minutes to see whether you like it and decide about your status
just protestant who takes advantage of the new selection for reduces prices for the weekend and otherwise ignores us.

I hope to see a few from this forum there. Clytus should go by all means. He is obviously into the Occupy Woodstock Movement. There will probably two psychiatrists attending the academy as members ( no kidding). They could offer some friendly help to Clytus. And for Saturday night bring your trumpet.

Nature's Way Nursery, 1451 Pleasant Hill Rd.
Harrisburg, PA 17112
Jim Doyle (717)545-4555
Nature's Way Nursery <natureswaybonsai@comcast.net>