So you want to be a Professional?

[Rick Moquin]

I guess you walk the walk then Rick? You must be too busy on your bonsai blog to post pictures here because I have seen only two small hinokis from you this year. Will, get off the podium so Rick can get on for a bit, and from now on you boys remember to take turns.

Ross,

In case you miss the context of my post I was referring to Will.

A complaint was launched that one had 20 years experience vice 5. One had a 365 day growing period vice approx 5 months etc... Will an I have been at this the same amount of time and we share a similar climate. I do bonsai in isolation not by choice. I don't need to take a podium as I know where my bonsais are in comparison and what I have to show for my efforts.

Besides I have nothing to prove to anyone

 

[ovation22]

Here ya go John, so you didn't waste all your time. An Itowgawa grafted California Juniper by Jim Gremel and styled by Marco.

keep it green,
Harry

Thanks, Harry. I appreciate it. Nice looking tree, too!

 

[Anonymous User]

I guess you walk the walk then Rick? You must be too busy on your bonsai blog to post pictures here because I have seen only two small hinokis from you this year. Will, get off the podium so Rick can get on for a bit, and from now on you boys remember to take turns.

Wow, Rick is reading my posts, even though he claimed I was on his ignore list, amazing! It must be a glitch in the software.....


Okay, Ross, the podium, Rick can have it, thanks for the suggestion.


Nice tree Harry!


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

So what happens when another contest entrant receives a comment such as, "not a bonsai" from a judge? We seen what can happen in this thread, even though the person who actually received a less than stellar comment wasn't the one complaining.

In the spirit this "So you want to be a professional" thread was started in, I invite you to take a look at an AoB Award entrant who politely asks for explanations as to why his entry received the comment "not a bonsai" from one of the judges.

Then I ask you to compare the comments here to the ones there, after which consider the title of this thread once again.

http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3823



Will

 

[Bill S]

Cool, a civilized discussion between people that are not sure they are being understood, how'd that happen online.

Seem to me that this should be the norm( not cheers Norm) if we show/exhibit a tree we should expect unbiased critisism, hopefully constructive as well.

Sounds like this could be a challange, lets have these discussions here so we can improve our bonsai.

 

[subnet_rx]

Something seems to be lost when a bonsai is competing instead of just being displayed.

 

[Bill S]

You are correct subnet, I do bonsai because I like it, try for the best results I can get, and look for some input from those I know are good at it from time to time. My bonsai is better than your bonsai, is all in the mind, because you don't know how a particular tree influences someone elses mind. It's all a head game. I don't mind a few standars here and there to act as guides for our endevors.

 

[rockm]

I'm sorry, but the language barrier precludes a clearcut "AOB discussions are more civilized" victory dance. If you read between the lines, the poster pretty much says "what's up with the criticism? I think this is a great neagari tree." I think the "polite" is more "the translator discombobulates actual speech" and fuzzes up language.

"Something seems to be lost when a bonsai is competing instead of just being displayed."

Something is lost when bonsai are just "displayed." What's eventually lost is mostly "quality" and good bonsai. Ineffectual, undisciplined display winds up being self indulgent, mediocre and unexciting. Competition is voluntary and valuable. No one is forced to enter a competitive bonsai show. The participants ask for it. Any damage from criticism is pretty much self-inflicted.

Competition has its place. At its best, it can push limits, sharpen focus, and expose crappola. You have to be very brave to enter a critiqued show. A thick skin helps tremendously. Expect negative. That is the default of any competition and it's not really a bad thing. Sports teams, entertainers and real artists know that.

Do you feel bad for an athlete who misses an easy fundamental catch? Do you feel bad for the lead singer at a concert after he/she a truly awful lackluster performance? Do you comfort an artist for not knowing the basics of forced perspective? Not really...

 

[Tachigi]

After reading nine pages in an exercise in futility, the only thing I walk away with is .....how could this statement be made. Al's backyard is probably the best known and displayed backyard on the web. With his benches in the background its a kin to displaying a newspapers publish date in front of a ransom victim.

So Al, what nursery did all the pruning back on this procumbens? How about a few before pics of the branch structure?
Will

I need to get myself a shock collar to remind me to exit a thread when it spirals downward.

 

[Anonymous User]

After reading nine pages in an exercise in futility,

The question begs as to why you would and then add to it?

People don't need to fight to disagree, the difference is professionalism. Careful reading of this thread will give good examples of how this happens and how such simple conversations can lead to big chest beating ego battles and challenges.

Other than to regress, please allow me to repost what was an attempt to get back to the original point of the first post here..

So what happens when another contest entrant receives a comment such as, "not a bonsai" from a judge? We seen what can happen in this thread, even though the person who actually received a less than stellar comment wasn't the one complaining.

In the spirit this "So you want to be a professional" thread was started in, I invite you to take a look at an AoB Award entrant who politely asks for explanations as to why his entry received the comment "not a bonsai" from one of the judges.

Then I ask you to compare the comments here to the ones there, after which consider the title of this thread once again.

http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3823

 

[Tachigi]

The question begs as to why you would and then add to it?

I don't know Will perhaps a need to vent my frustration, or perhaps just the simple need to be compensated for BS ... either way its my right and privilege as a member of this forum to voice my displeasure

People don't need to fight to disagree, the difference is professionalism

.

I have to admit I'm gobsmacked at this statement coming from you. You and I joined the nut about the same time and I can testify to the fights you have had...I never once have seen professionalism in any of those "disagreements" .... perhaps some self reflection before you stand on the bully pulpit as you have vowed to do in past threads.

Then I ask you to compare the comments here to the ones there, after which consider the title of this thread once again.

A very docile thread....good interaction. One should examine why though! No spam and you didn't post, not a very clean comparison.

 

[subnet_rx]

Something is lost when bonsai are just "displayed." What's eventually lost is mostly "quality" and good bonsai. Ineffectual, undisciplined display winds up being self indulgent, mediocre and unexciting. Competition is voluntary and valuable. No one is forced to enter a competitive bonsai show. The participants ask for it. Any damage from criticism is pretty much self-inflicted.

Yeah, see, that's my problem. A bonsai judge defines quality and good bonsai? Mine are ineffectual and undisciplined says who? I don't mind criticism, but competitions seem to be creating this "holier than thou" among artists. Someone that needs to feel as though they have made an impact on the bonsai world, not by helping others, but by proving they are better than you are.

Competition has its place. At its best, it can push limits, sharpen focus, and expose crappola. You have to be very brave to enter a critiqued show. A thick skin helps tremendously. Expect negative. That is the default of any competition and it's not really a bad thing. Sports teams, entertainers and real artists know that.

Why do we need to expose crappola again? What's the purpose? If someone is completely happy with their weed in a pot, why exactly do we need to expose them as a fraud?

 

[Attila Soos]

If someone is completely happy with their weed in a pot, why exactly do we need to expose them as a fraud?

We need to expose them in order to prove that we are better than the guy with the weed, of course. Life IS the product of competition, you see. Competition is the whole point of existence- in case you don't watch Nature documentaries.

(not that I don't see your point, and note the sarcasm in my post)

 

[Vance Wood]

Why do we need to expose crappola again? What's the purpose? If someone is completely happy with their weed in a pot, why exactly do we need to expose them as a fraud?

Because some people need to have their trees looked at with a critical eye if they want to grow in bonsai design. Personally; I have learned a lot from the reactions I get to some of my trees. Contests and critiques are not always kind and if you are worried about such things you shouldn't enter in the competition. If you are completely happy with your weed in a pot why would you be upset if some third party identified your tree as a weed in a pot? However if your weed in a pot was thought by you to be a Kimuraesque masterpiece wouldn't you like to know why someone of supposed repute thought it to be a weed in a pot? Maybe there is something there to learn. When all else fails you can always judge the judge as being blind, incompetent, incontinent, and full of crap; one good fantasy deserves another.

 

[Anonymous User]

Tom,

Thanks for your thoughts,

... either way its my right and privilege as a member of this forum to voice my displeasure

I agree and I would fight for your right to do so, however we then must also recognize that the very discussion on this thread you condemned was had by people with the same rights.

I have to admit I'm gobsmacked at this statement coming from you. You and I joined the nut about the same time and I can testify to the fights you have had...I never once have seen professionalism in any of those "disagreements" .... perhaps some self reflection before you stand on the bully pulpit as you have vowed to do in past threads.

Examination would reveal a pattern of response on my part and very few instances of inciting such "disagreements" but this is well known by any who have witnessed such events. In fact, you and I have had this same discussion about this in the past, your advice being to ignore the people who do incite. I have a right to respond or to ignore, I find myself ignoring more and more lately.

That being said, I never laid any claim as to my own professionalism, you're fighting windmills.

A very docile thread....good interaction. One should examine why though! No spam and you didn't post, not a very clean comparison.

No spam is allowed and I could, as you well know, link to a couple thousand posts of my own on that forum, none leading to blowouts. I could also link to posts of my own on your forum, KoB, IBC, IFB, Bsite, etc with the same results. So, let's follow your logic as you laid it out and look for a common denominator....since I post on many forums, including those I do not admin or mod and since these blowouts only happen here AND since no such blowouts happen on any other forum with anyone, the truth must be that they happen here simply because they are allowed to happen here.





Will

 

[subnet_rx]

Because some people need to have their trees looked at with a critical eye if they want to grow in bonsai design. Personally; I have learned a lot from the reactions I get to some of my trees. Contests and critiques are not always kind and if you are worried about such things you shouldn't enter in the competition. If you are completely happy with your weed in a pot why would you be upset if some third party identified your tree as a weed in a pot? However if your weed in a pot was thought by you to be a Kimuraesque masterpiece wouldn't you like to know why someone of supposed repute thought it to be a weed in a pot? Maybe there is something there to learn. When all else fails you can always judge the judge as being blind, incompetent, incontinent, and full of crap; one good fantasy deserves another.

I still really don't see the point in competition. All the things that you mentioned could be had without competition. The only additional piece that a competition offers is for someone to be king of the hill.

 

[greerhw]

I don't know Will perhaps a need to vent my frustration, or perhaps just the simple need to be compensated for BS ... either way its my right and privilege as a member of this forum to voice my displeasure

.

I have to admit I'm gobsmacked at this statement coming from you. You and I joined the nut about the same time and I can testify to the fights you have had...I never once have seen professionalism in any of those "disagreements" .... perhaps some self reflection before you stand on the bully pulpit as you have vowed to do in past threads.




A very docile thread....good interaction. One should examine why though! No spam and you didn't post, not a very clean comparison.

Hey Tom, I didn't know you were a limey, gobsmacked, I love it.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Vance Wood]

I still really don't see the point in competition. All the things that you mentioned could be had without competition. The only additional piece that a competition offers is for someone to be king of the hill.

Not really. You cannot get honest critique from friends---if that is what you are looking for. You cannot get some sort of idea where your work stands with your peers----if that is what you are looking for. King of the Hill? That's a cop out my friend. Winning in some sort of competition for the honest is nothing more than the validation of their work and that's all. Everything else is a rubber chicken, the ribbons, the plaques, the recognition really mean nothing. If these are the important things to you then you might be one of those people who are likely to cheat.

 

[Tachigi]

Hey Tom, I didn't know you were a limey, gobsmacked, I love it.

keep it green,
Harry

I blame it on Ian...been hanging around him for to long. I also find with two daughters at an impressionable age, I find when I hit my thumb with a hammer that a Brit term sounds so much better than what use to come out of my mouth when I was a sailor

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Here ya go John, so you didn't waste all your time. An Itowgawa grafted California Juniper by Jim Gremel and styled by Marco.

keep it green,
Harry

Harry my dear...

Is it safe to assume that your mentor will continue work on this tree by making the deadwood more dynamic? I think it's a very lovely tree... and would enjoy to see even more focus on bringing out the value of the deadwood. One can leave a lot of visual mass and still take out the weight.

Warmest regards,

Victrinia