Some facts about bonsai soil

[esons]

Where do you readily get the lava from? I haven't been able to find any.

 

[Dan W.]

I don't have personal experience with a tree in the same soil for 20 years, but I have discussed this with someone who does. A friend of mine, Harold Sasaki, has some very nice, very old white pines he received from Japan. (I'm fairly certain he said 20 years ago, though it may have only been 15... only?) He had not Repotted these trees in the 20 years since they were imported. (He told us that he never believed akadama was worth the price... until he repotted his pines last year. He was certain they would be severely root bound. But they weren't! Fine roots were growing very happily through completely broken down/caked akadama, and not ringing the pot. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the soil mix was pumice and akadama.

(Dusty, if you could check my facts next time you talk with Harold I'd appreciate it. -- If you read this...lol)

 

[Dan W.]

I meant to say: Very well written and informative thread Al! With your permission I would like to print the text for our club. Credited of course.

 

[Poink88]

I do not use Akadama because I have no (affordable) access to it. I am not in any way questioning the effectivity of it.

My only qualms are when someone tells me I cannot grow plants in my mix...which clearly works for me. Whether it is too fine, junk components, too much organic, etc. is immaterial to me. I know most that was mentioned here but I am not that intelligent to know the best for my plant (and others). All I know is that my plants are thriving on what I am growing them into. To me that matters the most.

I also do not have any tree close to being a bonsai so their needs are different. I am encouraging them to grow...FAST, not maintaining them.

In time, hopefully before my trees become real bonsai, I hope to settle and use the best available soil component. Honestly, I won't be surprised if it includes akadama (even expect it).

 

[papymandarin]

problems with akadama will come if you have wet winters AND frost. Akadama works fine in japan because they have dryish winters. Here (belgium) and in most part of western/northern europe, winters are VERY wet AND we have frosts. Trees are nearly never watered between september and march because they never really dry! This together with our regular frosts will turn akadama into an awful asphyxiating mud. But people here overwintering their trees in green houses or at least sheltered from the winter rains and so that are able to keep their trees dryier can use akadama without problems.

 

[coh]

What could or would that army do to prevent the trees that are under snow from freezing? The trees that can take or out in the snow just as the are in the North east of the United States

I'm not talking about preventing freezing. I'm talking about dealing with the aftereffects of the freezing. Presuming that the akadama breaks down, that would cut down the air to the roots and make watering trickier. So rather than just watering on a schedule, the trees would need to be very closely monitored...that's where the army of attentive apprentices comes into play.

Just a theory, I have no idea if it's true.

Someone else posted about the trees not freezing if they're buried under snow. That's certainly possible, provided that the snow comes early in the season and doesn't melt until spring. Few places have such reliable snowfall, certainly not around here. Some winters the ground is covered from November to March, but during most we have several thaws when the trees would become exposed and undergo repeated freeze/thaw cycles.

 

[brewmeister83]

I'll stick my neck out ...

Fact...

After one winter in northern MN, akadama turns to clay mush in the pot and drainage becomes untenable. Region does become part of the issue.

I'm curious as I saw pictures of 4+ feet of snow at a bonsai nursery in japan where they use akadama. What do you figure they do to make it work?

I'm not talking about preventing freezing. I'm talking about dealing with the aftereffects of the freezing...

Someone else posted about the trees not freezing if they're buried under snow. That's certainly possible, provided that the snow comes early in the season and doesn't melt until spring. Few places have such reliable snowfall, certainly not around here. Some winters the ground is covered from November to March, but during most we have several thaws when the trees would become exposed and undergo repeated freeze/thaw cycles.

Ok, I've never used Akadama, so I've been reluctant to touch the sacred cow and comment on the whole "substrate debate." So I'm not going to talk directly about Akadama, I'm going to talk about natural observable phenomena and economics instead. Others have already touched on this in the past, but here's my take on it...

As a New Englander (someone from the frozen north) I can speak from experience that it doesn't need to be freezing or below for it to snow. I've routinely had snowfall when it's been in the mid to upper thirties, sometimes to several feet. Plus, snow is an insulator, a couple feet worth and the ground is sitting at a stable 32. That, and Japan I believe has milder winters than I do (Tokyo - average winter day temps in the high30's - low 40's... me - teens-20's)

One of the tricks of even basic gardening up here is knowing how much mulch to apply to perennials in the fall - not to protect from freezing, but to regulate and even the temperature swings between freeze/thaw cycles which are what cause the real damage. I don't care if my plants get frozen, but when they do I want them to STAY frozen until stable temps resume - b/c its the repeated thawing & formation of ice that causes cellular damage. I just went and checked my trees the other day, and they're still icy under their mulch - good thing b/c I've already had temperature swings that look like this: 50, 15, 37, 22, 47, 19, 29, and that's been just the past two weeks!

Why do I say all this? So the next point hits home... The reason why a lot of people from cold weather climates are worried about Akadama breaking down is because we deal with a phenomena that many in places such as California and Texas do not. It all has to do with crystal formation & substrate/soil permeability - particularly in the case of water in the winter one of two things happen:

1- Water drains through the ground & cools at a slower rate gradually creating crystals that may shift soil sightly but not cause too much displacement.

2- Water pools in colder ground & cools at a fast rate quickly creating large expanding masses of ice that rapidly fill up and push against the space it's in.

You folk in warmer climates normally experience #1 (which isn't all that threatening to cold hardy plants), while we northerners can experience #2 on a regular destructive basis - we just call them HARD freezes. What can hard freezes do? Well, if conditions are right and surface snow is allowed to melt and saturate the ground, they can cause frost heaves - big ones. Like it's above freezing for a couple days, melt water seeps under a thawed road surface and concentrates on top of the permafrost, then the temps drop into the teens for the next couple days (rapid cooling causing large packs of ice to expand) and you end up with the road getting cracked in half - literally.

So, if our winters can crack a road in half, why would you think that little pieces of Japanese soil saturated in water would be immune? That's why we look for alternatives to Akadama that are locally available. Not because we're looking for an alternative that's just as good as Akadama, but because we can't justify throwing away twice the money (it's really expensive up here) for a substrate that will break down just the same as any other because of our climate. Hell, given enough time even lava rock will break down because it gets cracked and blasted apart from ice up here - it just takes a little longer b/c it's solid rock.

Sure, you can be stubborn and use Akadama up here, but then you also need to buy a crap ton of mulch to make sure it's insulated and isn't susceptible to our extreme freeze/thaw cycles, or you need to shell out even more money for a temperature controlled structure to prevent freezing from happening in the first place - and keep in mind some of us don't have garages to stick our trees in. To a frugal Yankee, that doesn't sound very cost effective to me - I can't justify spending more on substrate that I need to spend even more on to protect. Protecting soil, what?!?!?

Conclusion: climate and location can be a major factor in choosing suitable substrate - especially if you don't have the money to buy imported soil and a fancy greenhouse. I wish I had warmer temps and milder, dryer winters where I could use the the fabled soil of the bonsai gods, but it just isn't in the cards.

Hope this has been informative or at least got you thinking.

(btw, great original post Smoke, good informative discussion starter)

 

[nathanbs]

do a simple experiment throw 200 granules in a shohin pot and leave outside for your next winter. If what you are saying is accurate you will see 400 granules more or less once spring is here?

 

[Poink88]

do a simple experiment throw 200 granules in a shohin pot and leave outside for your next winter. If what you are saying is accurate you will see 400 granules more or less once spring is here?

If I have akadama, I would have done that in my freezer. Put some in a container, wet it, freeze, thaw. Wet, freeze, thaw...and so on. Note any difference & take pictures after each cycle.

 

[brewmeister83]

do a simple experiment throw 200 granules in a shohin pot and leave outside for your next winter. If what you are saying is accurate you will see 400 granules more or less once spring is here?

Already on the books... I planned to do that with a bunch of different "common" bonsai substrate components to see what my winters do to them so I can tailor my mixes accordingly in the future. It was inspired by the fact that several bonsai growers up north seem to say the same thing about akadama - time to take it from anecdotal to objective verifiable evidence.

As far as the 200 to 400 # you gave, that's assuming that each particle only breaks once during the entire winter. What I believe actually happens (hypothesis) is an exponential cascading effect since we have dozens of freeze/thaw cycles and particles don't just crack in half - ice can blow them apart into multiple pieces. But for arguments sake, let's suppose each particle cracks only into two at each cycle. After the first you'd have 400, then 800 after the second, 1600 after the third, 3200 after the fourth, 6400 at the fifth, etc... with the particle size decreasing each time. This causes slower drainage so any new snow that's deposited and melts supersaturates the substrate causing the ice phenomena I talked about above. This buildup of ice in the pot would just accelerate decomp of the substrate even further creating an impermeable clay muck layer in the bottom of the pot - exactly what people describe happens to them.

 

[nathanbs]

Already on the books... I planned to do that with a bunch of different "common" bonsai substrate components to see what my winters do to them so I can tailor my mixes accordingly in the future. It was inspired by the fact that several bonsai growers up north seem to say the same thing about akadama - time to take it from anecdotal to objective verifiable evidence.

As far as the 200 to 400 # you gave, that's assuming that each particle only breaks once during the entire winter. What I believe actually happens (hypothesis) is an exponential cascading effect since we have dozens of freeze/thaw cycles and particles don't just crack in half - ice can blow them apart into multiple pieces. But for arguments sake, let's suppose each particle cracks only into two at each cycle. After the first you'd have 400, then 800 after the second, 1600 after the third, 3200 after the fourth, 6400 at the fifth, etc... with the particle size decreasing each time. This causes slower drainage so any new snow that's deposited and melts supersaturates the substrate causing the ice phenomena I talked about above. This buildup of ice in the pot would just accelerate decomp of the substrate even further creating an impermeable clay muck layer in the bottom of the pot - exactly what people describe happens to them.

bottom line is if you have more than 200 by a significant amount then something is happening. My point of using 400 is that I personally would be turned away from akadama if my particles even went from 1/8" to 1/16" in one season, game over.

 

[brewmeister83]

If I have akadama, I would have done that in my freezer. Put some in a container, wet it, freeze, thaw. Wet, freeze, thaw...and so on. Note any difference & take pictures after each cycle.

I thought about that, but then I realized the freezer experiment only works for replicating the winter conditions of someplace like Virginia. A freezer stays at the same temperature level, and freezes at the same rate every time. You'd have to make the freezer go 15-30 degrees colder and factor in a sort of wind chill to replicate the temps I get and the rate they are achieved.

 

[GrimLore]

I thought about that, but then I realized the freezer experiment only works for replicating the winter conditions of someplace like Virginia. A freezer stays at the same temperature level, and freezes at the same rate every time. You'd have to make the freezer go 15-30 degrees colder and factor in a sort of wind chill to replicate the temps I get and the rate they are achieved.

I mentioned in another thread that I do not want to "experiment" as the "quality" of the product varies so greatly. Much like terracotta and high fired clay... I do not have the time to try all of the "brands" to figure out the "best" nor do I feel a need to. I would not waste time on it even without risking plants as from brand to brand the results would most likely be a NOT SUBSTANTIAL research... Not saying it is not perfect by name, just trying to point out as in everything else quality makes a huge difference.

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Total side note... it was mentioned before, if one is in the very early stages
Of development when they are trying to thicken a trunk , or grow it out, what
Would you guys use ??? Obviously, if you were not growing in ground...

Reason why I ask, is that there are alot of folks who are always suggesting that
People put beginner trees in a bonsai soil mix, and grow it out. For me this is
Actually counter productive... A bonsai soil mix I have found really only works
When one is moving to the next step. By this I mean starting to work on branches,
And ramification... more fine feeder roots equals more fine branching. They
Kinda go hand in hand...

Often we tell folks who are new to bonsai that come here to get their Charlie Brown
Tree out of the nursery mix that it is in and into a bonsai soil mix, and grow it
Out...My personal opinion, would be that as long as it is fast draining, but obviously
Not root bound, that they would be better off leaving it in the nursery soil...
I have found that my beginner trees put on alot more pounds in a nursery soil.

Reason why I put this argument out for debate, is that alot of newbies are now
Going to run out and buy expensive soil, to try and accomplish what I personally
Would say doesn't seem to accomplish.

Then there is the discussion of putting in colanders or anderson flats to grow a
Tree out, which here again seems to me to be counterproductive...once again,
If one has a peice of material that is where they want it as far as trunk size and is
Now wanting to begin developing, then fine the extra air will help develop finer roots.
But, will not encourage roots to grow long and add weight to the trunk... at least from
My personal observations.This however is off the path, but I feel is somewhat
Relevant when discussing the reasoning behind using such soils in bonsai.

One more thing, wanted to add that since sand had been brought up, alot of folks
Find a straight sand mix to be very beneficial in helping establish cuttings to root.
Obviously, once this has been established, they are then moved on to a different
Type of soil.

For me... I personally feel that to much time is often spent discussing what is a best
Soil, and not enough time is spent explaining why such a soil is used, and for what
Purposes. What is the goal that is trying to be achieved by using such
A soil, and when and where it should be used. This is usually very vague,
And a hard thing to come to terms with when one is new and just starting out.

 

[A Random User]

Sorry about replying to my own post, but lately I have found how detrimental putting
A buttonwood in a tub of water can be... They absolutely love it !!!
Which goes totally against a normal logic and understanding regarding
Bonsai. I mean I new they liked alot of water... but it's like steroids !!!
Bald Cypress like it when you do this, but nothing like a bwood.
Having said this, here again, each bwood is totally unique and will
Respond totally different.

 

[Poink88]

Sorry about replying to my own post, but lately I have found how detrimental putting
A buttonwood in a tub of water can be... They absolutely love it !!!
Which goes totally against a normal logic and understanding regarding
Bonsai. I mean I new they liked alot of water... but it's like steroids !!!

I had my buttonwood in a dish pan...then double potted it w/ one w/o a hole (same as my bald cypress). Would have killed other trees but it thrived. I treat my logwood somewhat the same but less submerged.

Some bonsaists in the Philippines water their Pemphis Acidula with salt water...another no-no with other plants but that is what they need to thrive.

 

[nip]

Total side note... it was mentioned before, if one is in the very early stages
Of development when they are trying to thicken a trunk , or grow it out, what
Would you guys use ??? Obviously, if you were not growing in ground...

One more thing, wanted to add that since sand had been brought up, alot of folks
Find a straight sand mix to be very beneficial in helping establish cuttings to root.
Obviously, once this has been established, they are then moved on to a different
Type of soil.

For me... I personally feel that to much time is often spent discussing what is a best
Soil, and not enough time is spent explaining why such a soil is used, and for what
Purposes. What is the goal that is trying to be achieved by using such
A soil, and when and where it should be used. This is usually very vague,
And a hard thing to come to terms with when one is new and just starting out.

Precisely. It seems that some people insist akadama is mandatory, regardless of development stage, availability or cost. So according to those folks, anyone that cannot afford or find akadama is wasting their time. aka, elitism.
Course sand is also used by a few Japanese nurseries, without akadama, for all stages of growth. I guess akadama must not be available in their area.

The source and destination probably also impacts the breakdown period. A bag of dirt that sits on a semi-truck for 18 hours will be more apt to breakdown, as would an older bag that has sat around for years. So those within bonsai hot zones could be getting a better, 'fresher' product. That's just a theory, dirt could be dirt.

 

[A Random User]

Precisely. It seems that some people insist akadama is mandatory, regardless of development stage, availability or cost. So according to those folks, anyone that cannot afford or find akadama is wasting their time. aka, elitism.
Course sand is also used by a few Japanese nurseries, without akadama, for all stages of growth. I guess akadama must not be available in their area.

The source and destination probably also impacts the breakdown period. A bag of dirt that sits on a semi-truck for 18 hours will be more apt to breakdown, as would an older bag that has sat around for years. So those within bonsai hot zones could be getting a better, 'fresher' product. That's just a theory, dirt could be dirt.

I personally have never used akadama, it was never easily available... so I will leave the discussion to those
Who have. However, I do recall a discussion on I believe it was one of
Lindsey Fair's vids of a Japanese gentleman saying he either didn't use it,
Or use a particular size because it broke down to fast in his weather.
Will try and find, not to try and prove a point one way or another, but more
To try and understand it's principles.

I will also however try and get a hold of some akadama and try it out for myself.

 

[nip]

However, I do recall a discussion on I believe it was one of
Lindsey Fair's vids of a Japanese gentleman saying he either didn't use it,
Or use a particular size because it broke down to fast in his weather.

You are correct. From what I've seen, the all-sand growers mainly produce pines. But some very nice pines indeed.

 

[nathanbs]

Total side note... it was mentioned before, if one is in the very early stages
Of development when they are trying to thicken a trunk , or grow it out, what
Would you guys use ??? Obviously, if you were not growing in ground...

Reason why I ask, is that there are alot of folks who are always suggesting that
People put beginner trees in a bonsai soil mix, and grow it out. For me this is
Actually counter productive... A bonsai soil mix I have found really only works
When one is moving to the next step. By this I mean starting to work on branches,
And ramification... more fine feeder roots equals more fine branching. They
Kinda go hand in hand...

Often we tell folks who are new to bonsai that come here to get their Charlie Brown
Tree out of the nursery mix that it is in and into a bonsai soil mix, and grow it
Out...My personal opinion, would be that as long as it is fast draining, but obviously
Not root bound, that they would be better off leaving it in the nursery soil...
I have found that my beginner trees put on alot more pounds in a nursery soil.

Reason why I put this argument out for debate, is that alot of newbies are now
Going to run out and buy expensive soil, to try and accomplish what I personally
Would say doesn't seem to accomplish.

Then there is the discussion of putting in colanders or anderson flats to grow a
Tree out, which here again seems to me to be counterproductive...once again,
If one has a peice of material that is where they want it as far as trunk size and is
Now wanting to begin developing, then fine the extra air will help develop finer roots.
But, will not encourage roots to grow long and add weight to the trunk... at least from
My personal observations.This however is off the path, but I feel is somewhat
Relevant when discussing the reasoning behind using such soils in bonsai.

One more thing, wanted to add that since sand had been brought up, alot of folks
Find a straight sand mix to be very beneficial in helping establish cuttings to root.
Obviously, once this has been established, they are then moved on to a different
Type of soil.

For me... I personally feel that to much time is often spent discussing what is a best
Soil, and not enough time is spent explaining why such a soil is used, and for what
Purposes. What is the goal that is trying to be achieved by using such
A soil, and when and where it should be used. This is usually very vague,
And a hard thing to come to terms with when one is new and just starting out.

Precisely. It seems that some people insist akadama is mandatory, regardless of development stage, availability or cost. So according to those folks, anyone that cannot afford or find akadama is wasting their time. aka, elitism.
Course sand is also used by a few Japanese nurseries, without akadama, for all stages of growth. I guess akadama must not be available in their area.

The source and destination probably also impacts the breakdown period. A bag of dirt that sits on a semi-truck for 18 hours will be more apt to breakdown, as would an older bag that has sat around for years. So those within bonsai hot zones could be getting a better, 'fresher' product. That's just a theory, dirt could be dirt.

Im curious who actually says this specifically? Referring to putting young trees in a akadama mix or dont do it at all?

I agree its very important to differentiate between a seeding, a young nursery tree, a mature nursery tree, a mature nursery tree that's pot bound, a freshly collected tree, a collected tree from 3 years ago, a developed piece of bonsai material that you are already working on branch refinement, on and on. Each one of these scenarios could potentially have a severely or slightly different soil recommendation based on needs, wants, etc. Dont forget costs.