Species Study - Acer Saccharum/Acer Saccharinum

[HorseloverFat]

@Orion_metalhead is one that I know is working WITH Sugar Maple... and Negundo, I think..

Now where MY experiences with these species is negative.. I feel DISCUSSING and COMPARING experiences is Imperative to the understanding of "why"

@0soyoung has CHANGED my views on Platenoides through his work, and now I'm a convert..

And the Rubrum Bonsai in the Arboretum proves that folks are WRONG about Rubrum..

So who knows.. maybe discussions HERE will change mine(possibly other's) minds as well.

At the VERY least at least give us pertinent DATA to share with folks we'd like to encourage or discourage in the future.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Native trees unsuitable for bonsai . Leaves are to big growth is uncontrollable ugly profile hard to grow . . Will never be anything worthy of putting in a show .

 

[Paradox]

But who... WHAT others?

How long did THEY try?

Where is THEIR documentation.

You keep saying "proven"..

Everyone says "proven"..

But can't prove it...

Or never tried themselves.

I DID try, myself.. and I'm still here discussing.. Because i felt that the TIME I spent trying
wasn't adequate.. and that SAME amount of time would not have yielded good results from MOST trees.. even the ones with the Japanese "Seal of approval"

Seems to me you're still ATTEMPTING to throw jabs "on your way out"

...Of a Bonsai Study group forum..

With the TITLE "Species Study"..

Someone strolls in.. "Nah!... I don't think you should really study this specie at all?"...

Was that really WORTH saying... Or attempting to spread negativity SECONDHAND.., With no relevant experience, good or bad to share.

EVERYONE i've spoken to says ALMOST the same thing, even OG growers in the bay area..

"Yeah Sugars, Reds, Silvers and Norways are all POOR for bonsai... I tried some for a year two.."

But never longer..

And I've PERSONALLY seem amazing things done with Rubrum AND platenoides..

So Maybe.. JUUUUST maybe..

"most" are wrong about the others..

It IS a possibility, yes?

And with no FIRST-HAND or WITNESSED experience to share (I'd imagine you have shared if you did...) YOU.. don't REALLY know either..

We all tend to repeat stuff we hear... even if that stuff wasn't SHOWN to us.. OR we didn't experience said "stuff" ourSELVES..

I was just curious if you had experience and insight to share.. or just another nay-sayer.. walking by and laughing.

Nice try at a guilt trip....not buying it and not "walking by and laughing"
Do a search, Im sure you can find examples of people working with them here and elsewhere

It's just not worth my time to pursue these species and I wont be goaded into it.
If you want to use your time and bench space for them, by all means have at it and prove they do make good bonsai.
Just do it if you are that passionate about these species, instead of asking others to do the work for you.
Vance Wood did it with Mugo pines, maybe you can do it with sugar and silver maples

 

[Paradox]

Native trees unsuitable for bonsai . Leaves are to big growth is uncontrollable ugly profile hard to grow . . Will never be anything worthy of putting in a show .

would be nice if you actually included a link to the threads where these are pictured instead of deliberately cropping and cutting off the address so that people can actually go and read about it for themselves and perhaps learn about it

Also no one here is against native NA species at all and we arent discussing Eastern White Pine which has also been categorized as difficult to bonsai. There are a few examples where people have made it work, very few. Due to their growth habits, and difficulty in reducing needles, they seem to have possibilities for larger bonsai much like Ponderosa pine.

If the maples in question can be made to reduce internode length, they too might be amenable for larger bonsai like Bloodgood variety of Japanese maples. Bloodgoods have been tried many times but also have proven to be difficult due to the difficulty in shortening the internodes and reducing the leaves.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Pictures as of today. All species have leafed out:


Norway Maple:
Three years from collection. Vigorous, hard to really complain about the overall strength of the species. Leaves are large, however Ramification has reduced leaves slightly while in pot. Petioles reduce as well though remain a bit long. Will study reduction of leaves going forward against the average leaf size from landscape specimens as ramification intensifies. Root growth is fast. Fall colors are nice. I have a thread on this tree.




Red Maple:
Really like this species. Vigorous and strong. Difficult to kill. Leaves reduce, especially the first flush. Root growth is fast. Can be kept small or large.


Boxelder Maple:
Jury is still out. Growth is strong but a bit unpredictable. Roots grow like mad. In a pot growth is restrained. Above is four years from a tiny seedling. I have a thread on this tree.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I like silver as well. Have two will share pictures..best.to keep in full sun or leaves seem to grow larger. Nice spring leaf color.

 

[Paradox]

View attachment 436037

This one is a cute lil tree

 

[HorseloverFat]

Nice try at a guilt trip....not buying it and not "walking by and laughing"
Do a search, Im sure you can find examples of people working with them here and elsewhere

It's just not worth my time to pursue these species and I wont be goaded into it.
If you want to use your time and bench space for them, by all means have at it and prove they do make good bonsai.
Just do it if you are that passionate about these species, instead of asking others to do the work for you.
Vance Wood did it with Mugo pines, maybe you can do it with sugar and silver maples

I opened up this DISCUSSION..

Because in the other Discussion threads.. PARTICIPATING members were discussing these trees.

So I thought I'd provide a thread for species specific conversations..

You came HERE... to a Silver/Sugar discussion thread... In my TinyTree Bonsai Study Group Forum... I guess I'm just confused at your angle...

What you don't seem to understand about me.. and other PLANT people is... EVEN IF I never got into Bonsai, my backyard would be FULL of plants.

Not trying to "guilt trip" you... just POINTING OUT that you have NO experience with the trees you are trying to convince OTHERS aren't suitable. (Not trying to GET you to grow them.. I don't care, either way!)

I had even STATED...my opinion is that Sugars and Boxelders aren't suitable..

But how we GAIN information and discover things as PEOPLE are discussion... the scientific method... comparing experiences,, and so on.

So my mind could change... I will be taking care of ALL SORTS of plants anyways... So closing my mind.. even THEORETICALLY to ANY of them... seems counterintuitive.

I'm not "nice trying" anything....

Just.. If you don't like green eggs and ham. Have never eaten them but will talk negatively ABOUT them.... why come to a green eggs and ham discussion board?

I believe you're assuming I'm being combative... I'm sorry if this is the way it seems...

I'm just trying to be inclusive HERE... so people WILL be able to discuss things HERE that they may be embarrassed to discuss around, "Bonsai Badasses with way Nicer Trees" (Like You, Sandy )

 

[Paradox]

I opened up this DISCUSSION..

Because in the other Discussion threads.. PARTICIPATING members were discussing these trees.

So I thought I'd provide a thread for species specific conversations..

You came HERE... to a Silver/Sugar discussion thread... In my TinyTree Bonsai Study Group Forum... I guess I'm just confused at your angle...

What you don't seem to understand about me.. and other PLANT people is... EVEN IF I never got into Bonsai, my backyard would be FULL of plants.

Not trying to "guilt trip" you... just POINTING OUT that you have NO experience with the trees you are trying to convince OTHERS aren't suitable. (Not trying to GET you to grow them.. I don't care, either way!)

I had even STATED...my opinion is that Sugars and Boxelders aren't suitable..

But how we GAIN information and discover things as PEOPLE are discussion... the scientific method... comparing experiences,, and so on.

So my mind could change... I will be taking care of ALL SORTS of plants anyways... So closing my mind.. even THEORETICALLY to ANY of them... seems counterintuitive.

I'm not "nice trying" anything....

Just.. If you don't like green eggs and ham. Have never eaten them but will talk negatively ABOUT them.... why come to a green eggs and ham discussion board?

I believe you're assuming I'm being combative... I'm sorry if this is the way it seems...

I'm just trying to be inclusive HERE... so people WILL be able to discuss things HERE that they may be embarrassed to discuss around, "Bonsai Badasses with way Nicer Trees" (Like You, Sandy )

I am hardly a "bonsai baddass" Not even close. Adair, Brian Van Fleet and Mach5 among others are those people.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I believe humans have brains and can make decisions for themselves.
People have been down this road. I merely stated what the current state of knowledge is for these is. Its there to find if you want to look.
Again, if you want to spend time working with them, no one is trying to stop you at all, just do it and prove the current state of knowledge/opinion wrong.

I simply do not have the time and space to try and develop more species. I am already working with 2 native species (one pine and one juniper).
If I had a lot more land, coldframe space, money (for the land) and time, sure it would be interesting to play with all the species. Alas I am at pretty much max capacity for space and I dont have the time to work with the trees I have. Hopefully when I retire, Ill have a lot more time to spend, but the space issue will still remain.

Bonsai has a lot of avenues that people can pursue and enjoy.
Developing from seed/cuttings, refining already developed trees or working with new species. Its all possible and it all contributes to the practice.
If this is your passion and what you enjoy pursuing, do it. As I said before you could be the voyeur for these species in bonsai ala Vance Wood.

Sincerely, good luck with working with these. It would be nice to see some more native North American species as bonsai.

 

[Paradox]

As far as "my coming here to your group or w/e" and your insinuation that I have some agenda....
The thread popped up under "new threads". I didnt pay attention to what section it was in. It could have been under "deciduous trees" for all I knew.

It is a forum and any thread can be responded to. Its kind of the point right?

If you want it to be exclusive to only members or subscribers to this section of the board, ask Greg to make it private and able you to be approve which people you want to be allowed to see it. Then you dont have to worry about dissenters ruining your thread

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Two Silver Maples. Acer Saccharinum... one (green leaves) has been in shade. The other has been in full sun. Full sun has smaller leaves.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

would be nice if you actually included a link to the threads where these are pictured instead of deliberately cropping and cutting off the address so that people can actually go and read about it for themselves and perhaps learn about it

Also no one here is against native NA species at all and we arent discussing Eastern White Pine which has also been categorized as difficult to bonsai. There are a few examples where people have made it work, very few. Due to their growth habits, and difficulty in reducing needles, they seem to have possibilities for larger bonsai much like Ponderosa pine.

If the maples in question can be made to reduce internode length, they too might be amenable for larger bonsai like Bloodgood variety of Japanese maples. Bloodgoods have been tried many times but also have proven to be difficult due to the difficulty in shortening the internodes and reducing the leaves.

would be nice if you actually included a link to the threads where these are pictured instead of deliberately cropping and cutting off the address so that people can actually go and read about it for themselves and perhaps learn about it

Also no one here is against native NA species at all and we arent discussing Eastern White Pine which has also been categorized as difficult to bonsai. There are a few examples where people have made it work, very few. Due to their growth habits, and difficulty in reducing needles, they seem to have possibilities for larger bonsai much like Ponderosa pine.

If the maples in question can be made to reduce internode length, they too might be amenable for larger bonsai like Bloodgood variety of Japanese maples. Bloodgoods have been tried many times but also have proven to be difficult due to the difficulty in shortening the internodes and reducing the leaves.

I did not deliberately not include anything . Perhaps you took it the wrong way or I did not explain the post correctly . Was only pointing out Examples of trees that most think are unsuitable . Both are from this forum . No one is trying g to guilt you or convince you to grow anything .

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Might as well add this here was in other . Tree is sugar maple collected this spring roadside rock crack tree was chainsawed back I estimate 3 to 4 years ago by Ontario hydro ( power company ) normal maintenance so no interference with power lines pic is 1 week old starting to leaf out a little unsure if I got enough roots All u could get I. Pocket but several main roots went deep into rock crack

Ok I’m a idiot right place to post wrong species leaf’s are opening tree is silver maple no matter will still be fun

 

[HorseloverFat]

One of my favorite "Silver Selects" (Selected for internode length, leaf size/personality.. out of hundreds)...

This one was a helicopter, "Yoinked" from a yard in Berwyn, IL.. last spring.

I call it my @sorce -icopter!

This (along with other stock) was grown in 80/20 Inorganic heavy for the first year. (Basically until 'stunt stress' was noted and the plant 'doubled down'... producing new maristem, mother points BETWEEN existing nodes.)

Then in spring transferred to a 60/40 organic heavy 'growth' mixture..

Full sun.. it gets 7-8 hours right NOW.. soon it will be more..

I'm pleased with the results just ONE year of work and careful thought have been producing in Silver maples. (I like the ones I've seen posted, too!
Thanks for sharing!)

 

[Frozentreehugger]

What exactly do you consider inorganic and organic I should have said what mine was in . The large collected silver normal mix Equal parts. DE. ( oil absorbent ) crushed red granite Composted pine mulch Normally just pine bark but it’s been g he and to get this year everything is cedar mulch . But I found a good supply there honest it’s not pure bark but it’s heavily composted and I’m allowing a larger sifted size especially in the collected stuff . Anyway the large silver is in that 1/3 of each but more like 40 /20 on the DE to granite simple reason I’m not getting younger and that 41 litre container looked heavy For the record for all my trees I start with the 1/3 of each above mix Conifers currently young Pine and my shinpaku get 75 percent regular mix and 25 percent more granite normally some organic living trees get 80 percent regular and 20 percent something else organic often my homemade leaf mold I have even used a small quantity of bagged compost. Especially for hemlock and flowering trees. Some will say this last part is completely wrong But I have experimented a lot my first go at bonsai especially with hemlock

 

[Frozentreehugger]

When I moved to the small town I live in 17 years ago . The little old English lady down the street that loved her potted roses . And I had a sharing of substrate . I converted her to bonsai soil that I made for her . And she convinced me of the advantage of good quality leaf mold This you have to make yourself You need fresh fallen leaves not allowed to set and dry on the lawn when I have enough bagged I make a big pile and use a lawnmower to slightly reduce the size they are but in a composter with a little. Pine or manure to get them started them 1 year Yes the bonsai people say wrong wrong You have to square that yourself. If it’s pure it does not break down and clog drainage as people that have never used it claim You do not use it in large quantities 10 percent good starting point dicid trees hemlock flowering trees love this stuff . Another use is after fertilization and life if you have a tree 1/2 way between repots scrap the top layer off 50 / 50 mix of this and DE Top dress improve percolation A little goes a long way

 

[yashu]

So this was a sugar maple that a murdered this past winter. I was getting short internodes and leaves reduced to about 1” but unfortunately I had one of those “impatient idiot” moments. I had just acquired the Sara Rayner pot it is shown in and had this romantic idea of American tree in an American pot and repotted out of season. The tree never recovered. Anyway… I think shorter internodes are attainable on the species but besides the fatal repot I am not knowledgeable on what I was doing wrong or right. No worries though, there are more in the pipeline

 

[HorseloverFat]

So this was a sugar maple that a murdered this past winter. I was getting short internodes and leaves reduced to about 1” but unfortunately I had one of those “impatient idiot” moments. I had just acquired the Sara Rayner pot it is shown in and had this romantic idea of American tree in an American pot and repotted out of season. The tree never recovered. Anyway… I think shorter internodes are attainable on the species but besides the fatal repot I am not knowledgeable on what I was doing wrong or right. No worries though, there are more in the pipelineView attachment 437359

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

Very nice pot!

Sorry to hear that it didn't recover.. but glad to hear your enthusiam.

 

[yashu]

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

Very nice pot!

Sorry to hear that it didn't recover.. but glad to hear your enthusiam.

hopefully my next post on this will be a success story. There are a couple rubrum in the works that hold promise so we shall see.

 

[HorseloverFat]

hopefully my next post on this will be a success story. There are a couple rubrum in the works that hold promise so we shall see.

I like Rubrum alot!...

I am working my "selects" (from last years multitudes) from the ground up, with the intention of sales, as well... trying to flood the market with "Good" Rubrum specimens... because just like ANY seedlings... they won't ALL have tiny/interesting foliage and short internodes.... You have to do the selection work... THEN.. take cuttings off of "preferred stock" (in the future)

(There's a Rubrum/platenoides thread in "TinyTree", as well. )