substitue soils for each substrate??

[barrosinc]

I was wondering, I do not have access to every substrate in the books... and maybe this would help a lot of people that have limited supplies.

The idea is complete the list with a substrate that could substitue another substrate in case it is not available.

Some substrates will not have a direct substitute, but if you didn't have that substrate what would you do?

1. Akadama
2. Red Lava
3. Pumice
4. Peat
5. Sphagnum moss
6. Turface
7. Perlite
8. Vermiculite
9. Bark
10. Kanuma

(you can complete the list with any other substrate you use).

 

[Poink88]

As with most soil (& fertilizer) discussion...it boils down to your tree; climate, sun exposure, watering habits, phase your tree is in, size of pot, etc. etc.

Know the features of each ingredient listed...then you can mix a substitute...it usually is not a one-to-one direct substitution so it can get really complicated.

I know what you are trying to do but sorry to say, there is no direct answer to your question.

 

[barrosinc]

hahahah you got me...

The thing is I cannot buy turface, akadama nor kunama.

I am going to repot 3 maples and a Kurume Azalea I have, and I want to aim on trunk girth, and some root development.

 

[GrimLore]

hahahah you got me...

The thing is I cannot buy turface, akadama nor kunama.

I am going to repot 3 maples and a Kurume Azalea I have, and I want to aim on trunk girth, and some root development.

It would be rather difficult for me to advise substitutes as I do not know what you have available there...

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

Of the list you have...I'd use the lava, pumice, sphagnum moss, and bark.

If you are in a dry area, use more lava, otherwise use more pumice. Again, size of tree, pot size, watering, wind, sun exposure, etc. also play a role on your mix. My advise, take the holistic approach. Look at the big picture then adjust each that you can accordingly.

For azalea, it need more acidic mix so use more organics. Say half (lava + pumice) and half (bark + s. moss).

For maple, 2/3 (lava + pumice) and 1/3 (bark).

THIS is as I see it and lots of people will disagree...maybe including you.

 

[iant]

1. Akadama - no perfect substitute. Would sub 2/3 lava or pumice or perlite with 1/3 sifted bark
2. Red Lava - sub pumice or perlite
3. Pumice - sub lava or perlite
4. Peat - I never use this.
5. Sphagnum moss - top dressing to hold moisture, no sub
6. Turface - too small and water retentive for my taste. Might be useful if sifted well in really dry climate
7. Perlite - sub pumice or lava
8. Vermiculite - stay away from. Too water retentive
9. Bark - ? Akadama or turface but not really the same. All are water retentive
10. Kanuma - I don't know

Just my humble opinion. I consider lava and pumice and perlite (all well sifted and about the same size) as being fairly interchangeable other than the weight and look are very different. Perlite is a pain to sift (and dangerous without good respirator.)

Ian

 

[Lazylightningny]

I'm just too cheap to pay exorbitant shipping prices for any of these. I can locally source haydite, Napa Oil Dry, and pumice. I use recycled and screened pine bark from nursery trees as my organic component. For now, I'm mixing at a 1:1 ratio.

Some will argue until they're blue in the face which components to use. Walter Pall says it doesn't really matter. You have to experiment and determine what works best for you.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

River sand and garden compost can be a good substitute if screened and mixed properly. You want relatively large particles so that the water drains quickly. And just enough compost to fertilize and keep some moisture between watering.

 

[Oleg]

In Canada NAPA sells Thrifty Sorb it is montmorillonite clay, calcined, not Floor Dry wich is Diatomaceous Earth, Made by EP Minerals Reno NV www.epminerals.com, also make Diatomaceous Earth. This seems to be a direct substitute for Turface. If you have a Baseball diamond with a clay mound in your town then someone sells Turface to pour on it when its wet you should be asking your local little league where the get it. This stuff ($10.00 per 40 lb bag) is cheaper though and possibly easier to find at NAPA, beside oil spills it says on the bag it can be used for cat litter and a potting soil additive, the particles are of slightly different colours with an over all grey appearance, Turface is reddish brown.

 

[carp]

In Canada NAPA sells Thrifty Sorb it is montmorillonite clay, calcined, not Floor Dry wich is Diatomaceous Earth, Made by EP Minerals Reno NV www.epminerals.com, also make Diatomaceous Earth. This seems to be a direct substitute for Turface. If you have a Baseball diamond with a clay mound in your town then someone sells Turface to pour on it when its wet you should be asking your local little league where the get it. This stuff ($10.00 per 40 lb bag) is cheaper though and possibly easier to find at NAPA, beside oil spills it says on the bag it can be used for cat litter and a potting soil additive, the particles are of slightly different colours with an over all grey appearance, Turface is reddish brown.

No way José. Montmorillonite is no way the same as Turface. ThriftySorb is 100% Fuller's Earth, when it is fired (calciniced) just below its melting point it becomes a completely different mineral; acrillite, also known as Turface. Fuller's Earth will turn to mush in about 10hrs if your soak it a cup of water. At this very moment I have 4 cups of product soaking in water including Moltan ThriftySorb, Moltan Safety Absorbant, Oil DRI, and Turface. Both Moltan Products are 100% Fuller's Earth (montmorillite clay) and i did not know this when I bought the two different bags because the label is not clear. You can check the MSDS online from each manufacturer to find out what it is made from so you don't do what I did. Should've thought to do that before I bought them. Moltan does sell a product called OptiSorb which is 100% Diatomaceous Earth.

The Oil DRI is made from Fullers Earth and Bentinite and appears similar to DE in color, but also it breaks down in about 24hrs when soaked. Bentinite is pretty much what the majority of major kitty litter brands use. The ones that say "clumping" especially. I've used it in a few trees and have begun noticing the particles decaying already within a few months. I could not imagine getting more than a years use out of this stuff. But I've also heard other people have good results, probably due to climate differences.

The NAPA Floor Dry product is made of Diatomaceous Earth which is not the same as Fuller's Earth (montmorillonite) or Bentinite. DE will not break down in the soak test and IS a direct substitute for Turface in every way except in color. It is made of fossilized diatoms and is really the best substitute for Turface. I've read that CarQuest also sells a product of DE as an Absorbant product which is supposed to have less fines.

Personally for me, Turface works just fine and I like it. I have a hard time finding it without driving more than an hour away so I've been researching and hunting down products to test for an alternative.

 

[carp]

I can post pictures (tomorrow) of the 4 soaking products and the Oil DRI in my soils and how its begun to break down within a few months.

 

[Oleg]

You are right, it's breaking up in my fingers. The guy said it would not break down but gave me a sample in a paper cup, so Iwas able to take the unopened bag back today. Car Quest did have Opti Sorb bigger particles than Turface and grey when it's wet.
Thanks
Chris

 

[Dave E]

i've tried the moltan safety absorbent,moltan thriftysorb,oil dri,and D E.-have not tried turface

i gave them all the water soak test.
the DE is small particles and instantly turns into a slimey mushy goo.
within a couple hours at best the oil dri becomes mushy like clay.

i had the moltan safety absorbent soaking in water for 2 weeks and it was fine.i just found the moltan thriftysorb and it seems to be the exact same thing as safety absorbent,only a little bit bigger particles(which may be just cuz it's from a different batch) anyway thats on day 2 of soaking and still seems fine

 

[f1pt4]

I was wondering, I do not have access to every substrate in the books... and maybe this would help a lot of people that have limited supplies.

The idea is complete the list with a substrate that could substitue another substrate in case it is not available.

Some substrates will not have a direct substitute, but if you didn't have that substrate what would you do?

1. Akadama
2. Red Lava
3. Pumice
4. Peat
5. Sphagnum moss
6. Turface
7. Perlite
8. Vermiculite
9. Bark
10. Kanuma

(you can complete the list with any other substrate you use).

I use haydite instead of turface. It has good sharp edges, and isn't too expensive.

 

[Geo]

In Mexico:Inorganics-TEZONTLE(red lava-scoria),aroyo gravel(not like most gravel-some volcanics in it),Organics:COIR(the inner husk of coconuts).No haydite,no Turface,no Akadama.Where I live they just do not exist.I also have access to an uncomposted mixture of what looks like small bits of wood:twigs,etc,which,when mixed with rabbit manure(composted)which I can also acquire easily,is a great seed starter substrate.Everything is different here.Thinking cap time!

 

[DougB]

One of the things I have done is to create a chart of the 3 basic types of material. These are the basic columns. Additional columns can be added for trace material, ferts, etc. The columns are:

* Organic material (1/3)

* Semi-Porous Water-holding material (1/3) fired clays

*HARD - Non-porous Drainage material (1/3)

Under each column I added a description of each material. Such as "Quartz grit(farm and feed stores) Granite chicken grit (farm and feed stores) Crushed granite - an inert, non-porous particle that promotes drainage, often sold as poultry grit. The sharp edges are thought to stimulate splitting of roots and the growth of many small drinking roots" under HARD. I also have some web links and local sources in each material description.

I also added the % of each type of material for each of the bonsai soil mixes.

********** Please not that the descriptions of the material and some of the other information is copied for various website and sources, some I retained and some not. This is not original solely from my feeble brain.

 

[M. Frary]

the DE is small particles and instantly turns into a slimey mushy goo.
within a couple hours at best the oil dri becomes mushy like clay.

I've got Napa oil dri part #8822 that is 3 years old and still solid. Looks and acts just the same as the day I first used it. I reuse it over and over again.

 

[LanceMac10]

Akadama, lava, pumice...sold as "Pro Mix"....shoulda' been labeled, "Quit Your Job To Water Three Times A Day",not, "Your Good At Container Growing...."