Teach me about "Hardening Off"

[GrimLore]

OMG take a chance people, its just a freakin tree.

I never received an answer as to Quince pruning that I could make sense of although I can and often do translate climate differences....

So, because as you said, I went and did things as I thought the worst thing can happen is it dies...

I cut this two gallon or so Toyo Quince back from a overgrown mess of many branches and suckers to 5 branches no more then 5 inches long in Fall of 2016. In April 2017 I cut it back a little more after some flora appeared and dropped. I just let it grow and cut again in Fall of 2017 and had a total of more then 24 branches to trim - not shabby.

It looks like an overgrown mess but it is a controlled mess. I have to partial defoliate a few times during growth to monitor and trim new branch. Here it is at 28 branches in need of defoliation -



Edit; I must add that I have taken what others call the reckless way after watching and talking to the people that used to upkeep our Orchard at the old place. When I asked when they prune the answer was either "when they need it" or "when the cutters and saws are sharp"...

Grimmy

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I just don't understand losing half a year to wait until the tree "hardens off" to start working it.

Well, you didn't ask me to "prove" anything - you just asked for an explanation of the process There is no such thing as a "perfect" process for any tree. It depends on so many factors - not the least of which include health of the tree, stage of development, time of year, what kind of winter we had, etc.

But I do want to say that at least for me, if you wait for the first flush of growth to harden it isn't waiting 6 months. My strong deciduous are well into their second round of growth at this point. I say "strong" because we had a horrific winter this year that really weakened some of my trees. My hornbeams are not happy, and even some of my Chinese elm cultivars are wondering what happened.

So to play Devil's advocate... when would you NOT want to wait until first growth hardens when pruning deciduous:
(1) When growth is extremely asymmetrical and you specifically want to hold back part of the tree to allow other parts to catch up.
(2) When the tree is extremely strong and you want to weaken the 2nd push of growth to reduce leaf size and develop extremely fine ramification.
(3) When you are letting part of the tree run (sacrifice branch) and want to keep the other parts of the tree constrained.
I'm sure I can think of others... I probably just have to walk out and look at some trees

As far as I'm concerned, understanding the natural flow of a tree's growth cycle allows you to influence it to pursue your design goals. And yes, I have really messed up some trees by pruning them too early - by cutting back young spring growth before the tree has recovered from winter dormancy. But that is within the context of the trees in question being in earlier development, not having a lot of ramification, not being as strong, etc. Now I apply different approaches for different trees based on what I think will work best given the situation. For example my hornbeams I haven't even touched, while my strongest Chinese elms I have now pruned twice this spring so far.

 

[Paulpash]

If you wait till growth hardens off it's too thick, has overlong internodes & your apex will look like a box of walking sticks. Pruning or pinching soft shoots repeatedly way before this gives us delicate twigging.

Hardening off then pruning is better for building branch sections that Adair alluded to. Sometimes no pruning if you want that first branch section in proportion to a hefty trunk - depends.

(I'm probably on ignore so I have no idea why I'm writing this!)

 

[JoeR]

If nothing else this thread should make you think. Today i was looking at this maple and wondering, what am I waiting for? Why have I not cut it back yet this year? So it can gain strength and recover after the chop and repot. Well, it looks like it’s recovered just fine. So I’ll be working on it tonight. Thanks @Smoke for pushing me out of my comfort zone.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

If Ryan made a video tomorrow about pruning the new growth weekly there would be a mass exodus to the bonsai store to buy new shears cause that's the way Ryan does it and I learned it off his video. Ryan is not the be all end all out there. There are some of us that can think and do things and have great success.

I'm not saying he is. Just saying that he can show some really nice tree to backup 'his' techniques. Same as you, as suppose.

My personal view? I let branches grow if I want them to thicken. If I want to ramify I usually cut them when they out grow my idea of the tree silhouette a bit. Except for the mulberry, as explained previously, cause I tested and see how it worked.

Chinese elms? I don't think I can tell when its leaves have harden off or not. They all alike to me, old and new, apart from size and a little red tint on the new ones that quickly washes off into a dark green.

 

[Smoke]

If you wait till growth hardens off it's too thick, has overlong internodes & your apex will look like a box of walking sticks. Pruning or pinching soft shoots repeatedly way before this gives us delicate twigging.

Hardening off then pruning is better for building branch sections that Adair alluded to. Sometimes no pruning if you want that first branch section in proportion to a hefty trunk - depends.

(I'm probably on ignore so I have no idea why I'm writing this!)

Your not on ignore, AND, I knew if I waited long enough someone knowledgeable about doing bonsai would finally say the words you have said. You could not have said it better. It’s all about refinement and a means to an end. It goes without say that to grow a large primary branch, let it grow. Chop it back in the fall and allow the next segment to add some taper and chop it again. St some point along the way during this phase one is going to have to think about secondaries. One will obviously not allow them to elongate as long as when building the primary. During that part of the phase a person may be pruning green shoots as many as three or four times during the season. I understand that America has many different growing seasons, but come on anyone with rudimentary exposure to planting 1.98 pony packs of color around the yard knows when they can plant and when to stop. This is not rocket surgery

 

[Smoke]

I'm not saying he is. Just saying that he can show some really nice tree to backup 'his' techniques. Same as you, as suppose.

My personal view? I let branches grow if I want them to thicken. If I want to ramify I usually cut them when they out grow my idea of the tree silhouette a bit. Except for the mulberry, as explained previously, cause I tested and see how it worked.

Chinese elms? I don't think I can tell when its leaves have harden off or not. They all alike to me, old and new, apart from size and a little red tint on the new ones that quickly washes off into a dark green.

I’m gonna let the forum in on a little secret. No professional does what he says. Ryan works the trees in the collection here in Fresno. He is the new guy here after Kenji Miyata left for Alabama or Georgia or wherever he went. I watched Ryan wire a beautiful California juniper here. It is a very large tree. I have pictures somewhere. I was looking at it last month after it had rested for a few months after his initial work and 75% of all the small growth he wired turned brown and fell off leaving coil springs all over the tree. What does this mean. It means nothing. Many times California’s will dry up and turn brown and fall off ruining a gorgeous winter wire job. He’s human, and obviously not perfect and shit happens with even him.

Now we turn to a different pro, I would love to see any maple with branches grown like the pictures Adair drew. They make for a great lesson and look great to someone that doesn’t know any difference, but sorry just don’t work that way. I saw those same pictures here in Fresno in 1984 when Warren Hill was a consultant for PGE and working in the county. We asked him to do a program and he talked about maples and drew the exact same pictures then. For years I looked for maples with branches like that and have yet to find one and I go to lots of prestigious exhibits of fine bonsai. I have listened to all the horror stories about doing Boon intensives only to wire a tree and have Boon come over and tell you to take it all off and do it again. I remember about 10 or 12years ago going to a BIB exhibit and looking at this one tree it was a pine. I was amazed at the multitude of crossing wires , the tips that had come out of the fish hooks by two or more winds and asked whose tree it was. When I was told it was Boons tree I could not believe what I was hearing. How could a guy so hard on his students do such laid back work? It happens folks.

No one continues to go see pros if they told you that the first round of wire for the season can just be thrown on. Just cross wires all over the place and wind it loose here and tight there. It’s going to come off in two months anyway so don’t worry about it. That’s the kind of stuff that gets around like wild fire and ruins reputations. So being strict and always preaching the safe way, the cautious way, the horticultural sound way will be admired by the masses. THAT IS TRULY EVIDENT HERE BY THE SLAVISH RESPECT FOR BOON AND RYAN.

But.... I’m tellin ya they don’t always practice what they preach. That’s where the real bonsai happens. The part the happens in their own privacy devoid of eyes and the more relaxed nature of their own creativity. That’s when you learn something. That’s why bonsai forums are gold mines of information because given the same circumstances and the identical material there are those even on this forum that could run circles around these professionals because we don’t have to be proper when we teach. We just tell you the way it is and this is what you will get if you do this, I can show you my results and then you decide if you wish to do it. When you get the results you want.... don’t forget to come back and thank a few of us assholes that showed you an easy way.

 

[Paulpash]

Foliage mass drives thickening. Apply the triangle principle of leaf volume all over your tree and you are on the right track regarding branch thickness from top to bottom, ie greatest volume on your first branch and least near the apex. Without observing these rules you can't build a quality branch structure on any deciduous tree - forget guidelines, the tree won't budge on this one. On my big field maple, for example, I had to grow the first branch over 10ft in length before it got chopped back to 1.5 inches (it must have had several hundred leaves on it). Artistic licence does not work with trees when it comes to horticulture & growth patterns.

 

[JoeR]

Foliage mass drives thickening. Apply the triangle principle of leaf volume all over your tree and you are on the right track regarding branch thickness from top to bottom, ie greatest volume on your first branch and least near the apex. Without observing these rules you can't build a quality branch structure on any deciduous tree - forget guidelines, the tree won't budge on this one. On my big field maple, for example, I had to grow the first branch over 10ft in length before it got chopped back to 1.5 inches (it must have had several hundred leaves on it). Artistic licence does not work with trees when it comes to horticulture & growth patterns.

I didn’t realize you were such an experienced grower, I suppose it’s because I don’t see you post very often. There’s probably a reason for that. How many years of Bonsai do you have under your belt?

 

[Paulpash]

I didn’t realize you were such an experienced grower, I suppose it’s because I don’t see you post very often. There’s probably a reason for that. How many years of Bonsai do you have under your belt?

30 years. Me and Smoke smack heads sometimes but he's made me think about photographing more of my trees and documenting them. I have a cotoneaster I grew from seed over a quarter of a century ago and I just realised this year that I've never photographed it in all that time. While not being particularly striking (it's a RoR) it has an interesting evolution with the roots 10 years older than the rest of the tree. I guess that's why I flipped a bit about when my grafting experience was called in to question!

 

[Adair M]

I’m gonna let the forum in on a little secret. No professional does what he says. Ryan works the trees in the collection here in Fresno. He is the new guy here after Kenji Miyata left for Alabama or Georgia or wherever he went. I watched Ryan wire a beautiful California juniper here. It is a very large tree. I have pictures somewhere. I was looking at it last month after it had rested for a few months after his initial work and 75% of all the small growth he wired turned brown and fell off leaving coil springs all over the tree. What does this mean. It means nothing. Many times California’s will dry up and turn brown and fall off ruining a gorgeous winter wire job. He’s human, and obviously not perfect and shit happens with even him.

Now we turn to a different pro, I would love to see any maple with branches grown like the pictures Adair drew. They make for a great lesson and look great to someone that doesn’t know any difference, but sorry just don’t work that way. I saw those same pictures here in Fresno in 1984 when Warren Hill was a consultant for PGE and working in the county. We asked him to do a program and he talked about maples and drew the exact same pictures then. For years I looked for maples with branches like that and have yet to find one and I go to lots of prestigious exhibits of fine bonsai. I have listened to all the horror stories about doing Boon intensives only to wire a tree and have Boon come over and tell you to take it all off and do it again. I remember about 10 or 12years ago going to a BIB exhibit and looking at this one tree it was a pine. I was amazed at the multitude of crossing wires , the tips that had come out of the fish hooks by two or more winds and asked whose tree it was. When I was told it was Boons tree I could not believe what I was hearing. How could a guy so hard on his students do such laid back work? It happens folks.

No one continues to go see pros if they told you that the first round of wire for the season can just be thrown on. Just cross wires all over the place and wind it loose here and tight there. It’s going to come off in two months anyway so don’t worry about it. That’s the kind of stuff that gets around like wild fire and ruins reputations. So being strict and always preaching the safe way, the cautious way, the horticultural sound way will be admired by the masses. THAT IS TRULY EVIDENT HERE BY THE SLAVISH RESPECT FOR BOON AND RYAN.

But.... I’m tellin ya they don’t always practice what they preach. That’s where the real bonsai happens. The part the happens in their own privacy devoid of eyes and the more relaxed nature of their own creativity. That’s when you learn something. That’s why bonsai forums are gold mines of information because given the same circumstances and the identical material there are those even on this forum that could run circles around these professionals because we don’t have to be proper when we teach. We just tell you the way it is and this is what you will get if you do this, I can show you my results and then you decide if you wish to do it. When you get the results you want.... don’t forget to come back and thank a few of us assholes that showed you an easy way.

Smoke, a lot of Boon’s trees are not wired by him. I have wired several of “Boon’s trees”. Boon owns them, but he has so many that he can’t possibly work all of them personally. Only recently has he had full time apprentices.

About the “take it off and redo it” style of teaching: This is the way Boon was taught in Japan. Or, rather, that is what he experienced. He wasn’t “taught”, per se. He was told to wire it. If it wasn’t up to his Masters standards, he was told to take it off and redo it. He wasn’t told what was wrong, only that it wast “good enough”. So, he was forced to go out into the garden, and study how the other trees were wired, and then try to emulate that on his next attempt.

In his class, he does teach “proper technique” before he sets students loose on trees. Then comes back and evaluates the work, and determines if a redo is necessary.

Could the first wiring have been used? Probably. But there’s usually too much wire used, anchors are weak, etc. By having to redo the wiring, the student is forced to put a bit of thought into it. Plan it out better. Copper wire is expensive! Learning to use the least amount as necessary is a good thing.

Kenji moved to Georgia. He uses aluminum wire, by the way. I’ve been to his new garden. He has nice stuff. But, I found his Pines were not as well developed as I was expecting. It may be because he was busy moving, he couldn’t work them like he wanted. I’ll go back in a year and see if they’re better. I hope they will be.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

30 years. Me and Smoke smack heads sometimes but he's made me think about photographing more of my trees and documenting them.

I love seeing photos of your trees.

 

[Victorim]

... Well never thought this thread would turn into so much thought and self reflection (for me I meen). I didn't start all this with so much wait and watch, and I don't know where it's creeping in from.. probably facebook.. I've got work to do cheers guys.

 

[Paulpash]

What other art form has time as it's 4th dimension? It's this elusive quality that can't be transmitted through forums but it is probably the most important one - the 'when' of success.

Al summed it up well - have a go, experiment, work your trees, use your eyes and common sense. Do this as often as you can to as many trees as possible. The 'when' will eventually become 2nd nature and your trees will slowly become more refined.

 

[Adair M]

I’m gonna let the forum in on a little secret. No professional does what he says. Ryan works the trees in the collection here in Fresno. He is the new guy here after Kenji Miyata left for Alabama or Georgia or wherever he went. I watched Ryan wire a beautiful California juniper here. It is a very large tree. I have pictures somewhere. I was looking at it last month after it had rested for a few months after his initial work and 75% of all the small growth he wired turned brown and fell off leaving coil springs all over the tree. What does this mean. It means nothing. Many times California’s will dry up and turn brown and fall off ruining a gorgeous winter wire job. He’s human, and obviously not perfect and shit happens with even him.

Now we turn to a different pro, I would love to see any maple with branches grown like the pictures Adair drew. They make for a great lesson and look great to someone that doesn’t know any difference, but sorry just don’t work that way. I saw those same pictures here in Fresno in 1984 when Warren Hill was a consultant for PGE and working in the county. We asked him to do a program and he talked about maples and drew the exact same pictures then. For years I looked for maples with branches like that and have yet to find one and I go to lots of prestigious exhibits of fine bonsai. I have listened to all the horror stories about doing Boon intensives only to wire a tree and have Boon come over and tell you to take it all off and do it again. I remember about 10 or 12years ago going to a BIB exhibit and looking at this one tree it was a pine. I was amazed at the multitude of crossing wires , the tips that had come out of the fish hooks by two or more winds and asked whose tree it was. When I was told it was Boons tree I could not believe what I was hearing. How could a guy so hard on his students do such laid back work? It happens folks.

No one continues to go see pros if they told you that the first round of wire for the season can just be thrown on. Just cross wires all over the place and wind it loose here and tight there. It’s going to come off in two months anyway so don’t worry about it. That’s the kind of stuff that gets around like wild fire and ruins reputations. So being strict and always preaching the safe way, the cautious way, the horticultural sound way will be admired by the masses. THAT IS TRULY EVIDENT HERE BY THE SLAVISH RESPECT FOR BOON AND RYAN.

But.... I’m tellin ya they don’t always practice what they preach. That’s where the real bonsai happens. The part the happens in their own privacy devoid of eyes and the more relaxed nature of their own creativity. That’s when you learn something. That’s why bonsai forums are gold mines of information because given the same circumstances and the identical material there are those even on this forum that could run circles around these professionals because we don’t have to be proper when we teach. We just tell you the way it is and this is what you will get if you do this, I can show you my results and then you decide if you wish to do it. When you get the results you want.... don’t forget to come back and thank a few of us assholes that showed you an easy way.

Smoke,

These pictures are of oaks, I think they’re close enough to maple to use as discussion items.

This first one is dying, I think from a lightning strike. The second tree is the one in the background of the first picture.





Both those trees had their lowest branches at the same height during the winter. I could easily stand on my mower and mow under them. I still can on the closer tree. The one at the end of the fence line forces me to bob and weave as I duck under it now.

The difference is the leaves. They are weighing the branches down. The branches don’t “grow” down, they start off growing up. They get pulled down by gravity.

Here are some views of the little movements in the branches of the nearly dead tree:





Oak trees differ from Maples in that Maples put out a new central leader and either side by side buds or up/down buds at each internode. Oaks, or at least these oaks, have a central leader and put out a single side bud at each internode. And they alternate around, so there will be a top, and an extension, then a left, then the extension, a bottom, the extension, and then a right bud. And then the pattern repeats. So, they don’t make 3 point intersections like Maples.

But what happens is the central leader gets long and heavy. As it does, it bends down. Any branches that used to be growing from the bottom and grew upwards get pointed down as the main branch drops. These eventually get so shaded out, the tree sluffs them off.

I have red maples in the front yard, but they’re so full of leaves you can’t see anything.

 

[Smoke]

What other art form has time as it's 4th dimension? It's this elusive quality that can't be transmitted through forums but it is probably the most important one - the 'when' of success.

Al summed it up well - have a go, experiment, work your trees, use your eyes and common sense. Do this as often as you can to as many trees as possible. The 'when' will eventually become 2nd nature and your trees will slowly become more refined.

damn...wish I said that. You just may have earned the "permanent not on ignore award!"

Well, you didn't ask me to "prove" anything - you just asked for an explanation of the process There is no such thing as a "perfect" process for any tree. It depends on so many factors - not the least of which include health of the tree, stage of development, time of year, what kind of winter we had, etc.

But I do want to say that at least for me, if you wait for the first flush of growth to harden it isn't waiting 6 months. My strong deciduous are well into their second round of growth at this point. I say "strong" because we had a horrific winter this year that really weakened some of my trees. My hornbeams are not happy, and even some of my Chinese elm cultivars are wondering what happened.

So to play Devil's advocate... when would you NOT want to wait until first growth hardens when pruning deciduous:
(1) When growth is extremely asymmetrical and you specifically want to hold back part of the tree to allow other parts to catch up.
(2) When the tree is extremely strong and you want to weaken the 2nd push of growth to reduce leaf size and develop extremely fine ramification.
(3) When you are letting part of the tree run (sacrifice branch) and want to keep the other parts of the tree constrained.
I'm sure I can think of others... I probably just have to walk out and look at some trees

As far as I'm concerned, understanding the natural flow of a tree's growth cycle allows you to influence it to pursue your design goals. And yes, I have really messed up some trees by pruning them too early - by cutting back young spring growth before the tree has recovered from winter dormancy. But that is within the context of the trees in question being in earlier development, not having a lot of ramification, not being as strong, etc. Now I apply different approaches for different trees based on what I think will work best given the situation. For example my hornbeams I haven't even touched, while my strongest Chinese elms I have now pruned twice this spring so far.

Please define "hardens" for the forum. Please use the correct term for all to ponder. If at all possible even use simpleton terms.

Such as, "wait until new growth turns brown on the stem but still has green petioles"
..or..
are you using the term harden off to mean the stem has turned hard, as in "lignified", wood?

But I do want to say that at least for me, if you wait for the first flush of growth to harden it isn't waiting 6 months.

Please define it. There are those right here in this thread that have said they been waiting for their plants to "harden off" but havn't seen them do that or they don't know what to look for. If you are an advocate for this hardening off process then lets clear this up now and put this to bed so that people can know what to look for. I still have no idea what you people are looking for when you say "harden off". I have never waited for or looked for that in my life. I may instinctively do these things but have never used the term in over 35 years of bonsai nor have I ever heard use of the term in any bonsai class or convention or workshop I have ever taken in California. I hang with a pretty talented group of bonsai artists up and down the state and have never had anyone school me on the use of hardening growth before working on it.

I get the feeling that the first guy that says what it is is afraid that there will be some sort of riot or something. This thing is at 94 posts and still no one has defined what harden off means. I can tell you this and you can take it to the bank, if your waiting for lignification or there abouts, you wasted a month of shoots, or more! When I cut my maples I have buds and small leaves in 12 days. That means I get two cuttings per month for March, April and May.

I DO STOP IN JUNE FOLKS!

 

[TN_Jim]

Before I ever thought of bonsai, a hardened leaf was and is one that has reached its maximum size (I don’t want to talk compound hickory on this one) and established the maximum amount of epidermal development.
Look at and feel a healthy leaf in late August for example..in spring or whenever your leaf appears to display these same morphological characteristics, it’s hardened.

 

[JoeR]

30 years. Me and Smoke smack heads sometimes but he's made me think about photographing more of my trees and documenting them. I have a cotoneaster I grew from seed over a quarter of a century ago and I just realised this year that I've never photographed it in all that time. While not being particularly striking (it's a RoR) it has an interesting evolution with the roots 10 years older than the rest of the tree. I guess that's why I flipped a bit about when my grafting experience was called in to question!

Very admirable, 30 years is certainly nothing to scoff at. I hope you continue to post more of your trees, and tag me if you do!

I honestly feel like An idiot, a sheep, after this thread. Broke boundaries for my thought on creating bonsai. I can’t believe I’ve been “bonsaiing” for these past few years and yet something so fundamental, so mundane as when to cut back seems like groundbreaking news. Just waiting and waiting for something I don’t know if it will ever even happen or how to know if it did? When you hear it over and over again you begin to think people know what they’re talking about and I guess it became so ingrained that I assumed it to be true. I think what I, among others in the age of the internet, am lacking is the self teaching “common sense” type bonsai skills that you learn on your own. Maybe I should ween off the forums for a while and form my own original thoughts and test my own hypothesizes for now.


What a thread.

 

[JoeR]

Such as, "wait until new growth turns brown on the stem but still has green petioles"
!

This is what I always assumed to be the key to look for... but now realize how unnecessary and ignorant this thinking is. My trees have been leafed out for 3 months now and still haven’t had the new growth stems turn brown yet, meanwhile they could and should have been pruned weeks ago.

 

[TN_Jim]

Please say if you think I am wrong. I am very curious about this.
@Smoke, you’ve raised a crazy hidden in the dust question. I have just read over many peer reviewed articles that use the term, and never explain it truely in methods or otherwise without deep anatomical analysis, as well as other plant-based sites including the forest service, nrcs, and Virginia Tech.

I do see another synonymous transitional term out there..Houseplants and trees...very different things right..? I put my philodendron outside this week, it’s leaves are not ‘hardening’ to me, it’s a mature plant put into an environment of more sun, possibly developing more cutin to adjust. Trees produce wood, outside.

I see the point raised here. I have chopped the hell out of so many plants and never questioned leaf development, and how do they typically respond if good sun soil and nutrients?..Like a hydra.

A prime example of this seems the jbpine contest, where seedlings are being severed, spurring desired active growth. Those leaves are certainly not hardened off, yet the remnants of. endosperm, or strength, is there despite these cuts.

Thanks