Think you need a teacher?

[Vance Wood]

You kind of have to put things in some sort of perspective. Those who live on the West Coast have a lot of options that fit into the pigeon holes you have described. Which leaves everyone else in the country kind of on their own unless they have decided they want to, or can, spend a ton of money to learn bonsai.

If that's a fact one is left with the question: If you are able and willing to spend this kind of money and you are willing to sacrifice the time involved, why don't you go to Japan? That choice for study seems to be the Harvard of bonsai. This also begs another question. Do you need or want this kind of education for something that is not much more than a hobby for you? Is this something that has professional implications for your future? Do you think that your potential and artistic skills are of such a level that this choice will not be a total wast of time and money? Don't misunderstand; I am in favor of anyone with the desire, to advance themselves as far as their personal situations can take them. I know there are people who can toss off a thousand dollars here and there with little second thought, but there are others who are lucky to put food on the table, have regular jobs, children to support, and a wife pinching the pennys.

I am reminded of a musical education. Do you want to go to Juliard just so you can play commin' round the mountain in twelve different keys? Or are you driven by a God given talent that cries out to be developed?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think everyone would benefit greatly from a teacher. You only learn this once you have had a teacher Also, progress with a teacher is MUCH faster than without.

As far as material goes, I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other, partly because I believe bonsai is all about the PURSUIT of excellence, and not the achievement of it. I know there are some who view bonsai as a competition sport. I am not one of them.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think everyone would benefit greatly from a teacher. You only learn this once you have had a teacher Also, progress with a teacher is MUCH faster than without.

As far as material goes, I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or the other, partly because I believe bonsai is all about the PURSUIT of excellence, and not the achievement of it. I know there are some who view bonsai as a competition sport. I am not one of them.

I have never argued against that point. What I do object to is the implication that it is necessary to continue a student teacher relationship for many years and high cost .

 

[Attila Soos]

No amount of money can improve your bonsai, unless you purchase completed bonsai from a recognized master, if you lack the imagination, motivation, and skill to work with great stock or a great master. I know someone who has worked with a highly respected Master for nearly ten years and still has nothing to show for his/her efforts.

As for me with the exception of 1960-62 when I was mentored by a local master in Northern California back in the day when a master was defined as someone who has been doing bonsai long enough to have survived more mistakes than I, I am pretty much self taught.

Would I like to be able to afford really geat world class material? Absolutely, I would also like to fly and live for ever but that's not going to happen either. Would I like to have studied with a great master? Absolutely, but if you look into that issue with the exception of Yoshimura, and Naka, until recently, maybe the last thirty years, those people were not available. Would a good teacher have helped me develop quicker? Yes that would or should be probable, but sometimes you have to play the cards you have been dealt.

Great post, Vance. I can relate to a lot of stuff here.

Bonsai teachers (and art schools for that matter), cannot teach you the art of bonsai. But they can do one thing very well: teach proper technique. And that can save you some time, because it will take you much longer to learn the same things on your own. That's about the only benefit that I can think of, when it comes to paid lessons.

Having a mentor, a great teacher who will freely spend time with you on trees, and passes on his thoughts, is a different story. But who has the luck to be with such a mentor?

If I were 20 year-old again, I would definitely spend a year in Japan, working for a reputable nursery. Not to claim masterdom, once I come back. Not to boast my ego. But just to be around a large number of great bonsai, and to observe the techniques and the speed with which they do bonsai at such a place. By doing that, I would have been better prepared to master the craftsmanship of bonsai. Not a bad thing, plus learning the language and the culture would also be fun.

But being self-taught also has its advantages, so no regrets here.

If you want to spend a lot of money on a teacher, then a public workshop is not the best venue. Instead, you invite the teacher to your house for a day, and work with him on your collection. By seeing your trees, he can assess your current knowledge, your talent, your material position, and your future goals. Having all that information, together you can work out a plan of actions. If I have a teacher, I don't just want to work on one tree of his choosing. I want him to see ALL my trees, and to give me his most honest opinion and advice.

So, there are ways to use a good teacher if you want to spend the money. But doing workshops after workshops is not the best way.

And yes, I agree with Al, that if you spend money on teachers, you better spend a good amount of money on top material as well. Otherwise, what's the point? If you have only cheap, juvenile material, you will have to wait half of your life-time, before you can apply the things that you've learned from a teacher.

 

[Attila Soos]

I believe bonsai is all about the PURSUIT of excellence, and not the achievement of it.

That's fine, for the first 15 years. But there comes a time, when you HAVE to show some results, or else, you will have to answer a lot of questions. Such as....will I EVER have a decent tree, worth a second look?
As long as your answer makes sense, there is no problem. Just make sure you don't live in denial.

In my case, the simple solution is that I have to put in a certain number of hours, in order to see drastic results. There was a time when I thought that trees can get better ON THEIR OWN. All they need is time. Big mistake.

 

[Poink88]

But being self-taught also has its advantages, so no regrets here.

Hearing/reading that from you gives me some hope. Thanks!

 

[Vance Wood]

That's fine, for the first 15 years. But there comes a time, when you HAVE to show some results, or else, you will have to answer a lot of questions. Such as....will I EVER have a decent tree, worth a second look?
As long as your answer makes sense, there is no problem. Just make sure you don't live in denial.

In my case, the simple solution is that I have to put in a certain number of hours, in order to see drastic results. There was a time when I thought that trees can get better ON THEIR OWN. All they need is time. Big mistake.

As to the pursuit of excellence, that concept is true---as long as that pursuit is not circular. There is an old saying that anyone who thinks they can do the same thing a second time and expect the results to be different is either a fool or insane.

You are also correct in making the statement that trees will not get better on their own. It is like making the assumption that a lot of coffee will solve the problems of being falling down drunk. Trees will only get older, and drunks will only become wide awake drunks. However; their trunks may get bigger, their barks may improve but in general their faults will become more prominent and their defects will become dominant.

I can tell you this as a fact. It is for this reason I have been working on restyling all of my trees for the last five years. I have had people that know my trees ask me why I am virtually starting some of these trees over; by some standards they are considered great as they are. The simple answer is that my standards have changed and I no longer look at my trees through rose colored glasses. The only thing that has really changed for the good is that they now have a great more potential if I dare to exploit that potential. Would a great teacher have helped? I don't know. At this stage most people I personally know as teachers would be unwilling to confront the issues honestly, or wouldn't know what to do if they did. The kind of stock answer I believe I would get as this point is to get some better material.

 

[Poink88]

It is for this reason I have been working on restyling all of my trees for the last five years. I have had people that know my trees ask me why I am virtually starting some of these trees over; by some standards they are considered great as they are. The simple answer is that my standards have changed and I no longer look at my trees through rose colored glasses. The only thing that has really changed for the good is that they now have a great more potential if I dare to exploit that potential.

Seems like a great learning opportunity for us if you are willing to post the material before start and what faults you wanted to correct or what potential you wanted to exploit...and how you proceeded.

I know it is a lot to ask of you but I hope you would consider. please, please, please????

 

[Attila Soos]

It is for this reason I have been working on restyling all of my trees for the last five years. I have had people that know my trees ask me why I am virtually starting some of these trees over; by some standards they are considered great as they are. The simple answer is that my standards have changed and I no longer look at my trees through rose colored glasses. The only thing that has really changed for the good is that they now have a great more potential if I dare to exploit that potential.

That takes some guts to do it. But there is a time in the life of the bonsai, when the tree has reached its maximum potential under the current design. At the same time, you know that there is a greater potential, if you do some drastic changes. This is when one's creativity and vision can make a difference. But there is also some risk involved, and one has to be willing to take that risk.

 

[Vance Wood]

Seems like a great learning opportunity for us if you are willing to post the material before start and what faults you wanted to correct or what potential you wanted to exploit...and how you proceeded.

I know it is a lot to ask of you but I hope you would consider. please, please, please????

Actually I have been doing that. I started this last summer with three or four Mugos, and a couple of Shimpakus. I'll get back to it this next season. I am not getting any new material so I am making new beginnings out of all of my old crap.

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Vance...I (and I am sure countless others) will be looking forward the "tutorial".

 

[Vance Wood]

That takes some guts to do it. But there is a time in the life of the bonsai, when the tree has reached its maximum potential under the current design. At the same time, you know that there is a greater potential, if you do some drastic changes. This is when one's creativity and vision can make a difference. But there is also some risk involved, and one has to be willing to take that risk.

The great risk is to the life of the tree, the minor risk is for a while compared to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Being accused of ruining a good tree. That being said I may ruin a good tree but I don't want a good tree I want a great tree.

 

[Poink88]

The great risk is to the life of the tree, the minor risk is for a while compared to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. Being accused of ruining a good tree. That being said I may ruin a good tree but I don't want a good tree I want a great tree.

Goose bumps!!!

 

[Vance Wood]

Goose bumps!!!

The kind you get when walking backwards into a darkened room, afraid that someone with a very large knife is waiting to cut your guts out.

 

[Poink88]

The kind you get when walking backwards into a darkened room, afraid that someone with a very large knife is waiting to cut your guts out.

No...the kind you get when you are inspired. I think I used the wrong word....more like "hair raising on the back of my neck"

The combination of Attila's post you quoted and your response did it to me.

 

[Vance Wood]

No...the kind you get when you are inspired. I think I used the wrong word....more like "hair raising on the back of my neck"

The combination of Attila's post you quoted and your response did it to me.

I am not good enough or foolish enough to think that I am going to make any of these transformations in one season. There is the first adventure that has been going on for at least three years. It is just now starting to look like something. If you are familiar with Pines you must know you really can not rush them, they kind of do their own thing and you have to time your efforts around their response.

Most of my trees are Pines, and I am not sure if we have not hijacked this thread, not on purpose but there ya go.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I am not good enough or foolish enough to think that I am going to make any of these transformations in one season. There is the first adventure that has been going on for at least three years. It is just now starting to look like something. If you are familiar with Pines you must know you really can not rush them, they kind of do their own thing and you have to time your efforts around their response.

Most of my trees are Pines, and I am not sure if we have not hijacked this thread, not on purpose but there ya go.

I believe that one of the trees you are referencing you brought up in my thread here.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9091-My-little-mugo

I don't have the time to study with a pro. Maybe one day I will. But the info I get from experienced people on forums and members in my club who have years under their belt is a near daily educational lesson that is much appreciated.

 

[Vance Wood]

I believe that one of the trees you are referencing you brought up in my thread here.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9091-My-little-mugo

I don't have the time to study with a pro. Maybe one day I will. But the info I get from experienced people on forums and members in my club who have years under their belt is a near daily educational lesson that is much appreciated.

That's probably the most significant of the bunch so far. There is another tree I have had almost as long that is going to be a bigger problem. That one goes under the gun this coming season. I will post as work progresses.

But; you have to remember sometimes the initial restyling makes the tree look worse rather than better. I posted one of those last season as well, it received a large number of views but only a couple of comments. That's the way it works sometimes. When you reduce a turd down to its basic components what do you have left? Think about it----and that's the way it looked when I was done. But I'm not done with it----yet.

 

[october]

That's probably the most significant of the bunch so far. There is another tree I have had almost as long that is going to be a bigger problem. That one goes under the gun this coming season. I will post as work progresses.

But; you have to remember sometimes the initial restyling makes the tree look worse rather than better. I posted one of those last season as well, it received a large number of views but only a couple of comments. That's the way it works sometimes. When you reduce a turd down to its basic components what do you have left? Think about it----and that's the way it looked when I was done. But I'm not done with it----yet.

Hi Vance.. We are in the same boat with many bonsai situations. I have also been restructuring some of my trees over the last 3-4 years or so. In some cases, practically taking them back to square one. I also pondered, do I stick with my good initial designs or do I set myself back for a few years and have very good or great trees. In every case, I believe I made the right decison.

The other situation we have in common is material. I also cannot just drop $1000 on a tree. I get material I can afford and then take the necessary time to make it great. It is a long process. Also, when your collection is relatively small, say 14-15 trees. Sometimes I feel like I should have more finished trees. However, the trees seem to be turning out well. Also, this season, I hope to acquire some nice pre material and add some nice trees to my small collection. Lets just hope that the juniper fungus that moved into my collection last season does not return. It decimated 2 of my junipers. I had been working with them for 6-8 years. I am thankful that they at least survived.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

Seems to me I remember you talking about that fungus a while back. If I had a reoccurrence of something like that I would start finding something that I could spray early in the season to stop it.

Have fun with your projects, I hope you photo your efforts you will be glad you did.