Ulmus Parvifolia 'Hokkaido'

runCMD

Seedling
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Location
Sonoma County, CA
Hello,

I am brand new to the hobby - have always been interested in the bonsai I have seen at state fairs and the like. I stopped by a local nursery today - I was looking for a Fukien Tea but came away with this Chinese Elm. From looking at this does anyone have any tips on planning out styling and other care tips? I am planning on keeping this indoors, and have an LED grow light and timer on the way. I am still researching proper care and maintenance on it. I expect I will be aiming for a tight leaf sort of broom formation with the way the branches are now.

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Hmmm.....what's that black thing next to your tree. A ceramic wolf? A cookie jar? A lamp? I think it's a wolf...but needs glowing sinister red eyes.

An interesting beginning path is a Google search on your tree as a bonsai. The Images tab should provide a wide variety of styles and design directions others have chosen for similar trees. Go to a bonsai exhibit near you one of these days...there are a lot of exhibits in the Spring months.

Are you planning this as a small tree? No large trunk?

When you find it...or hear it...follow indoor activities carefully...the indoor climate and environment will work...or not work. A certain amount of light, humidity, air circulation and temperature are needed. I don't have any indoor bonsai. I attempted it several years ago but did not have the right environment. Outside only now.

Your profile does not say where you are located....even if as a general location. Add that to your profile.

If you're in a winter prone area keep in mind that furnace heated air is very dry.

I'm not sure a single LED Grow Light will be sufficient. Others here may chime in on what works for their indoor set-ups. Lighting is essential.

You might take some photos of the tree at pot height with a plain background. From different sides. That will help others who see your tree posting.

There's a lot of conversations about Chinese Elms here...the search function, upper right corner area, might be a start.

It's nice to see someone with....Messages: 1
Soon you'll have 2, then 10, then 100..........
Along the way...have thick skin...keep a good sense of humor.
Welcome!
 
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@Mudd31415 check this out....

@runCMD this is good for you too...

So I went and picked up a Hokkaido elm at my show 2 years ago...
I asked a specific question.....

"How was this wintered last year?"

And I got a, "these trees can be kept outside..."

So I reworded my question, but I got the sameish answer.
(I don't know who shoulda felt stupid at that point, but I was stupid frustrated for sure!)

I kept it outside and got my answer when the tree was dead in spring!

It must have been wintered in a greenhouse , coldhouse, or something!

Point one....mudd
People are kinda programmed to think people don't know what they are doing.
Don't let others' ignorance ruin your fun in this hobby.

Point two...run
While I agree these can and should be kept outside, they can also be kept inside (or "babied"), wether acclimating from indoors to out, or outdoors to in (for winter), they do need to be acclimated.

Bloody Helinda!
That's Branish. (British Spanish) I = ee

Nice tree....

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce
 
Thanks for your replies. A couple of points and answers, some of which will likely label me "hard headed"


Hmmm.....what's that black thing next to your tree. A ceramic wolf? A cookie jar? A lamp? I think it's a wolf...but needs glowing sinister red eyes.
A green fox. It is hollow inside yes but my wife just likes foxes.

Are you planning this as a small tree? No large trunk?
That's sort of part of the question. I would like a thicker trunk but I understand the consensus there is outdoor growing in the ground to achieve that. I've read that this is a very slow growing tree so I need to take that into account.

When you find it...or hear it...follow indoor activities carefully...the indoor climate and environment will work...or not work. A certain amount of light, humidity, air circulation and temperature are needed. I don't have any indoor bonsai. I attempted it several years ago but did not have the right environment. Outside only now.
Yes I am hoping that the grow light will help with the light and the humidity tray will help with humidity. I have some spiders in my home office where I intend to move it once I have the grow light that need humidity so I am no stranger to raising humidity levels. I was even pondering rigging up a small waterfall system that uses a humidity tray as the basin....

Your profile does not say where you are located....even if as a general location. Add that to your profile.
If you're in a winter prone area keep in mind that furnace heated air is very dry.
Indeed - we are not "winter prone" but here in Sonoma County, CA we do get freezing/frost nights in the fall/winter and have a dry climate to begin with.

I'm not sure a single LED Grow Light will be sufficient. Others here may chime in on what works for their indoor set-ups. Lighting is essential.
Hoping someone does! There's not a WHOLE lot of info on people doing with bonsai that I have found. Of course we have lots of people doing it with "other" crops nearby

You might take some photos of the tree at pot height with a plain background. From different sides. That will help others who see your tree posting.
good idea, see below

There's a lot of conversations about Chinese Elms here...the search function, upper right corner area, might be a start.
Yes the good ol' search function - always good to balance that with ensuring you introduce yourself and what you are doing on a new forum.

It's nice to see someone with....Messages: 1
Soon you'll have 2, then 10, then 100..........
Along the way...have thick skin...keep a good sense of humor.
Welcome!
Thanks again!

Hokkaido elm and any elm for that matter do best outside all year.
Not sure they would survive our frosts from what I am reading, may entertain the idea of a miniature greenhouse some time - who knows? I tend to go a little overboard on my hobbies and spend a lot to get the set up that I want.

Also, thank you for your notes sorce, I may very well have a situation where I move indoor and out between the seasons but would really "like" an indoor only tree. I have read that people have had some success with this species.

Here are some more pictures everyone:

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There are two dwarf cultivars of Chinese elm - Hokkaido and Seiju. Hokkaido has the smaller leaves and shortest internodes (distance between buds), but it is relatively weak. It is hard to get it to throw strong growth, and the branches are very brittle and easily broken. If you plant them in a large container and let them just sit for a decade or so, they tend to develop gnarly, stumpy trunks with a lot of character, but the branch structure is weak and even with the best of care it will be a temperamental tree with a fair amount of die-back to be expected. It is best grown in a "clip and grow" method where you try not to touch the branches that much :)

Seiju has a lot of the charm of Hokkaido, without many of the weaknesses. The leaves are a little larger, the growth is a little stronger, and the branches are a little more robust. By "a little" I mean they are still very brittle compared to a standard Chinese elm.

Here's a photo of a large Hokkaido I took at San Gabriel Nursery about ten years ago:

hok2.jpg
 
Awesome! Thanks for the reply and very useful info. Yes I believe I came across your pictures of this in my searches at the nursery, that is one big Hokkaido. Perhaps this wasn't the best selection of tree for me. I really just bought it because it seemed like a viable option out of what they had for me when they didn't have the carmona microphylla I went for. I did appreciate the tiny leaves as the trees I have seen with small leaves in proportion to the tree itself have been what captured my interest most (I'm sure a common noob atrraction). It's likely I will end up with several trees as this is how these things go right? Hopefully I can do well with this one. I still need to order some basic tools for clipping/etc.
 
I can't imagine you'd have trouble with your Elm with any of the winters in Sonoma. Perhaps if it's some freak super cold storm you could bring it in for a night once every 10 years.... But you probably want to keep it inside rather for lack of outside area would be my guess?
Ian
 
I can't imagine you'd have trouble with your Elm with any of the winters in Sonoma. Perhaps if it's some freak super cold storm you could bring it in for a night once every 10 years.... But you probably want to keep it inside rather for lack of outside area would be my guess?
Ian

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt but I have a pretty big yard lol. More because I would like to sit and look at it while I work.
 

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For your frost nights. Someone on here used a small portable greenhouse tent like device....probably about 3-4' high...like a dome. I saw it in a post. It can be found on eBay. You might look at something like that rather than a full greenhouse expense.

Hard-headed is no problem....just have thick skin. It's unlikely that you could be the only hard headed person here. We all have our magic moments...and buttons that get pushed.

Sanoma County ...sounds like excellent outdoor growing conditions.
 
Quick update. Here is a picture of my setup on my desk. It is behind my monitor stand so I can see the tree nicely as I work and can switch off the grow light that is plugged into a timer if needed. It is doing well and I have new leaves and some longer little stems. I am starting to research clip and grow to see where/when I want to make my cuts. Need to start trimming the accent grass too :)

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Welcome to crazy. Yep, 'Hokkaido' cultivar of Chinese elm is ''the most difficult'' of the Chinese elms to keep happy. But it can be done. It can be done under lights.

An interesting factoid, we all got hooked on bonsai by the exquisite photos of traditional Japanese Tokonoma displays, a tree, a scroll and an accent plant or stone or something. Exquisite. Many westerners don't realize, those trees are brought into the house and set in the display only an hour or so before guests arrive, and are placed back outside shortly after the guests leave. In Japan a tree is seldom indoors for more than 24 hours.

Since you have a back yard, you could raise a small collection of trees, and rotate them through the seasons, each to spend some time on your desk, then back outside for more rapid, better growth. A collection of 52 trees would let each tree have a week indoors, and be able to be outdoors for the rest of the growing season. Just tossing the idea out. You could then pick up trees with special interest at different times of the year. For example, flowering quince for late winter bloom, azalea for April-May bloom, Wisteria for May-June or when ever it blooms in your area. Pines, elms and other deciduous for times when you don't have something in bloom. A maple or other tree with good autumn color.

Indoor bonsai, hang out some at the indoor grower supply shops, get a feel for different set ups. Most trees that will tolerate indoor growing are species that will be somewhat shade tolerant. If you can achieve half to 3/4ths the light intensity recommended for marijuana, you will have ''good enough'' light to do indoor bonsai. To some extent longer day length will compensate for lower light intensity. I run my lights 18 hours a day. Plants, trees etc, do need a ''dark cycle'', a study out of UW-Madison showed over 18 hours a day you are wasting electricity. I shoot for 1000 to 1400 foot candles of light, I think that is roughly 10,000 lumens to 14,000 lumens. This is about 25% full sun, but with the long day length I can bloom high light requiring orchids. (and the trees do well too). I like your LED grow light set up, but you will have to decide if it is intense enough.

Genus Ficus, the figs, especially the tropical figs are very good year round under lights candidates.
Chinese elm - is a subtropical elm, and somewhat shade tolerant, it does well in a very bright light garden, fades away if it is not intense enough light, but has been successfully raised under lights full time by a few growers. This is true of all the chinese elm cultivars.

Eugenia, Jaboticaba, Psidium - most members of the guava family, many of these do well under lights, Eugenia has the smallest leaves, and Jaboticaba is a close second. They will flower and if pollinated, fruit under lights. The culinary guava has large leaves that only reduce to the point where they are best for 3 to 4 foot tall bonsai.

Procumbens juniper is the only juniper that is somewhat shade tolerant, and I have heard of some limping a Shimpaku juniper along under lights. Both will give better, tighter growth outdoors. Other junipers need more sun, AND need cold winter dormancy.

Pines - vast majority are totally shade intolerant - even under my moderately high tech light system I can not keep a JBP healthy under lights. Ended up having to remove all under lights growth and start over as it was too weak and leggy. Best as ''visitors'' to the indoors, rotate them outside after a week indoors.

Azalea - especially the ''florists azalea'' bred for the flowering decorative potted plant trade, these hybrids have R. simsii and other tropical azalea species in their complex backgrounds. These do well under lights and can be a totally indoor tree if light is good. Satsuki azalea need a mild chill period to set flower buds. It is not an extreme chill, likely very doable in Sonoma county.

There are many, many more candidates, but I think you see the pattern. For 100% indoors, they need to be tropical or subtropical, and need to be shade tolerant, listed as half sun to full shade as a landscape plant. Species with small leaves work better too.
 
Quick update. Here is a picture of my setup on my desk. It is behind my monitor stand so I can see the tree nicely as I work and can switch off the grow light that is plugged into a timer if needed. It is doing well and I have new leaves and some longer little stems. I am starting to research clip and grow to see where/when I want to make my cuts. Need to start trimming the accent grass too :)

MuGHDHem.jpg
Cool.....That looks like it would go well with my old lava lamp.
 
Very good reply and interesting idea. I may commandeer part of the huge yard to look into this. The main problem is keeping the dog out. I believe this is supposed to be tolerant of shade but I may very well go the traditional outdoor route. Not sure how much I like the pink light on my desk after all :P.
 
I see you're in Sonoma County as was I. (Glen Ellen) Do you know about Lone Pine Gardens in Sebastopol? Well worth a visit.
 
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