Underdogs Hinoki Challenger

Leo in N E Illinois

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,171
Reaction score
12,778
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
I'm with Vance, I would not chop this tree. You have age in your trunk, it would take forever for new top to catch up to the old. 'Nana' and 'Nana Gracilis' are very slow growers. It would take a decade to develop a reasonable transition from old wood to new after a chop. Your current transitions have not smoothed out yet. Keep the whole trunk. My self, I would set it on the side, forget it for a couple years. The new growth, especially up top will maybe inspire a literati, or a tall upright with drop branches.

I know Hinoki and Thuja respond reasonably well to single point grafting. It is worth learning how to to it. You have a nice older trunk. Learn to graft, once you can do Hinoki, you can graft most anything.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,171
Reaction score
12,778
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
I have Hinoki 'Nana' if it grows an inch a years, it grew a lot. I also have Hinoki 'Willamette', it has no problem growing 8 to 12 inches a years if you let it. Not all Hinoki are dismally slow growers, some grow quite rapidly. Choose your next Hinoki, to be quicker growing, and you will fall in love with them.
 

Japonicus

Omono
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
1,973
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6ab
I don't think this is an ultra dwarf cultivar. I have a dwarf golden hinoki I guestimate 8 years now? that I thinned out maybe 5 weeks ago.
(It was a cutting grown to about the size of my fist when I bought it at a landscaping nursery locally.)
It has already filled back out, and will need thinning twice more before I wire it this Fall unless I repot this Summer.
It's in the wrong pot for which I have a new unglazed. The following year after repotting, I will probably reduce it by 1/3 due to the lack
of taper being pot grown its entire life.
DSC_3325.JPG

The girth on yours is nice for a dwarf. Leo has a good idea as well to go literati, then there's raft style too.

An areal view of a true hinoki cypress tree(s) is (are) absolutely gorgeous, and I'm talking about a tree that reaches
70' height, even well over 100' naturally. We had one on our property growing up, that when on top of our 40' tall house
I used to play on, the foliage takes on a totally different look viewed from above. Really cool trees.

So what did you think of the idea while you were setting up for taking the pics, to use that branch as the new main trunk?
It's as close and tight as you're going to get the foliage on this without grafting. It creates a new bonsai with movement
that you're going to be able to control as well, from down tow, to whatever height you choose.
1561762847337.png
After renewed vigour of a reduction maybe 2 years out at most, the branch with wire on it that crosses back over the trunk, remove.
The branch to the right of it, a little bigger, remove leaving a stub. The cluster of finer branches, select a couple with the most close in
foliage and keep, removing others that will thieve/compete for energy for girth and extension. Again that's at most 2 years out.
It's not a wrong idea, but whatever you decide, the crossing branches...those are wrong, but keep them for energy stores for now.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,468
Reaction score
15,387
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
There is a class for free on Craftsy that will help you with your wiring. This is something you really need to get a handle on. The ability to understand the engineering and theory of wiring is vital to freeing you imagination of possibilities in bonsai design. It wont come by itself unless you wait till your need of it slaps you in the face and you are forced to do it.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,468
Reaction score
15,387
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Please; one more time, access the on line wiring class, it is more valuable than you probably realize. Look at the wire you have placed on the branch in post #43. This shows a totally lost and unaware application of wire making the results a waste of time. First of all the wire is too small, even if it were copper it would be too small to be of any value. Secondly it is not anchored properly and does not go far enough up the branch to provide the control necessary to do anything of value. This tree should be worked on properly, and you are contemplating design options? Your skill level does not provide you with the tools necessary to do what you imagine to do, or even on the most elementary level. I am not trying to be insulting or condescending, and you may hate me in the end, but I am telling you the truth. You have indicated that this tree means something to you, but you are going after it like an air-craft carrier in a back yard swimming pool.
 

Underdog

Omono
Messages
1,593
Reaction score
3,155
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
Point taken Vance. I have watched the tutorial a couple times. I have it bookmarked. If you look at post #6 you'll see that errant branch. I just tired of it poking straight up. It's about the only branch I plan to remove. I've been trying your pinching on that branch to see how it responds. I'll remove it and the branch to try and root the cutting. More wiring practice to come...

Japonicus, I can't chop this thing down unless I kill the top trying... I will first try grafting and wiring. a couple years. Thanks for your thoughts. It's much older than 8 according to where I got it.
 

Japonicus

Omono
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
1,973
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6ab
Japonicus, I can't chop this thing down unless I kill the top trying... I will first try grafting and wiring. a couple years. Thanks for your thoughts. It's much older than 8 according to where I got it.
Sure it no doubt is more than 8 years old. I'm just saying that I really don't think it's an ultra dwarf
and that with any reductions, it will grow more than you may think over the course of a few years.
I can appreciate keeping upper foliage to graft down lower with. This is not the time to be wiring
more than gentle bends or gentle pad rotations.

I'm sorry, I do not understand the statement "I can't chop this thing down unless I kill the top trying".
Thats sort of redundant, any chop will delete the top/apex, so maybe I misunderstand?
At any rate, regardless of your decisions on styling, attend to the crossings of the trunk when you can.
and buy more :) Buying another, even/especially nursery stock, gets you a clean slate.

This video demonstrates about all you'll need to know on applying technique of pinching and thinning hinoki.
Published in Autumn, it irks me how so many good videos as such omit verbally what season they're doing what
they are, in what country or zone. Though he does mention England in this video.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,468
Reaction score
15,387
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Sure it no doubt is more than 8 years old. I'm just saying that I really don't think it's an ultra dwarf
and that with any reductions, it will grow more than you may think over the course of a few years.
I can appreciate keeping upper foliage to graft down lower with. This is not the time to be wiring
more than gentle bends or gentle pad rotations.

I'm sorry, I do not understand the statement "I can't chop this thing down unless I kill the top trying".
Thats sort of redundant, any chop will delete the top/apex, so maybe I misunderstand?
At any rate, regardless of your decisions on styling, attend to the crossings of the trunk when you can.
and buy more :) Buying another, even/especially nursery stock, gets you a clean slate.

This video demonstrates about all you'll need to know on applying technique of pinching and thinning hinoki.
Published in Autumn, it irks me how so many good videos as such omit verbally what season they're doing what
they are, in what country or zone. Though he does mention England in this video.
I agree 100% about the major flaw in Bonsai Videos and the critical lack of information about date time and season. This Video by Bjorn is dealing with an already finished bonsai by a recognized master. What Brorn did is not so technical as it is a demonstration of the artistic, which is equally important by at the extent it was done the time and season may not be so critical.
 

Underdog

Omono
Messages
1,593
Reaction score
3,155
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
"I can't chop this thing down unless I kill the top trying..".
As in trying to make a nice tree out of all of what I have to work with. Wiring and maybe try grafting first.
 

Underdog

Omono
Messages
1,593
Reaction score
3,155
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
Today after a Sunday workshop in Columbus and a long afternoon at home. Still going to do more detail wiring on the pads.
Lay it on me @Vance Wood and others. I can take it.
FWIW Frank who was the pro at the workshop said my tree is in the first 6 inches. as was said earlier in this thread. I can't do it...
IMG_20191021_181436932.jpgIMG_20191021_181503968.jpg
 
Last edited:

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,468
Reaction score
15,387
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
So he is talking about cutting the top of the tree out and growing the lower part of the tree as your new bonsai. I think a great bonsai from this portion of the tree may be a good choice, but it is a hard thing to do especially if you spent good money for the tree. If you are going to do this let me know and we will talk about it.
 

Japonicus

Omono
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
1,973
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6ab
Today after a Sunday workshop in Columbus and a long afternoon at home. Still going to do more detail wiring on the pads.
Lay it on me @Vance Wood and others. I can take it.
FWIW Frank who was the pro at the workshop said my tree is in the first 6 inches. as was said earlier in this thread. I can't do it...
View attachment 267590View attachment 267593
Your wiring looks much much better.
So Franks 6" idea, is that similar to the pic I posted of it in post 43 or a different branch?
I'd like to know which branch he chose since I didn't remember all the angles/views of the tree.

Work shop in Columbus...tell me more. Just over a 3 hr drive for me and I work 6 days a week.
There's Veterans Day coming up anything going on Sunday and Monday Nov 10 and 11th?
 

Underdog

Omono
Messages
1,593
Reaction score
3,155
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
but it is a hard thing to do especially if you spent good money for the tree.
I didn't pay anything for it Vance but it's very valuable to me.
So Franks 6" idea, is that similar to the pic I posted of it in post 43 or a different branch?
I believe he would leave the 2 branches with close in foliage. Yes, like your pic but there is also another branch behind and not showing in that pic.

Maybe some day when I have a bunch of great trees and more experience, I'll consider this again. For now, this is the biggest and best thing I have created so far. I have a bunch of cute little trees and a desire for more larger stuff. Maybe if I kill off some of those branched I just twisted the crap out of I'll have no choice...

If you are going to do this let me know and we will talk about it.
I really do appreciate this Vance but I'm not there yet.

Work shop in Columbus...tell me more. Just over a 3 hr drive for me and I work 6 days a week.
There's Veterans Day coming up anything going on Sunday and Monday Nov 10 and 11th?
Next meeting is about overwintering your trees Nov 17th
Seems about all their meetings are Sundays 2-5pm
I don't know much as I just joined this weekend, I went to their show in July.
 

Underdog

Omono
Messages
1,593
Reaction score
3,155
Location
Ohio
USDA Zone
6
I know Hinoki and Thuja respond reasonably well to single point grafting. It is worth learning how to to it. You have a nice older trunk. Learn to graft, once you can do Hinoki, you can graft most anything.
Some of the branches that were recommended to cut off because they are so leggy, I've wired clear around and back onto itself with plans of trying this next season. I will try on the expendable ones first.
 

Japonicus

Omono
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
1,973
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6ab
Next meeting is about overwintering your trees Nov 17th
Seems about all their meetings are Sundays 2-5pm
I don't know much as I just joined this weekend, I went to their show in July.
Thanks for the link! I've never been to a workshop, looks like it will be later than sooner.
Thank you for the link. I opened their calendar and didn't see anything for Nov, so thanks for the dates.
I don't FB and I don't have a smart phone and refrain from using my debit card online.
I have a flip phone and the internet is never slow on it:D
It looks like their method of payment rules me out, though it's nothing I plan to pursue this year since
the dates or class, is not in my schedule or desire. Sorry.
I cant imagine a 3 hour class on over wintering LOL. I'm sure there's some good cheer time built in ;)
 

Japonicus

Omono
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
1,973
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6ab
I understand. It's an investment. In ground investment. I would balk at the idea in your shoes too.
You will not get much more girth in 10 years kept in a pot, top tide would run better in ground as well
so if you like where you've got it, work with what you have. Back to the investment thing, if you wait 10 years to
cut it back hard...you've lost 10 years of development in that respect. I feel your "pain". It looks nice!
The mid right branch needs to come in tighter though.
 
Messages
1,147
Reaction score
1,316
Location
Central NJ
USDA Zone
7a
Cool tree. Sucks its given you so much trouble. You were having trouble wiring your branches without breaking them because you were using wire too small initially but your new wire looks much better suited.

My thoughts on this tree would be to utilize the same technique as Vance's dancing lady.

20191209_194341.jpg

Below the yellow line, remove mist branches and leave one interesting branch as jinn.

Up top, branches 1-4 would be wired down and out to form pads closer to the trunk and which can be positioned flat with the ground to emphasize the slanting style. I might even slant it further. The apex (5) would be wired to begin some movement and development up top to create a more finished style for the tree.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,468
Reaction score
15,387
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
You have the potential for a really nice Hinoki bonsai. If the tree were mine I would be thinking of all the branches on the right side of the tree at the base would be jinned. The larger branch on the left side would be brought out more horizontally and depending on the actually configuration of the upper branches being as they seem I would consider what appears to be branch #3 to be the new apex while I would eliminate those above it jinning the same. Branch 2 would be bent down with a guy wire and the existing bend would be increased pushing part of the existing pad abound to the back of the trunk. I am not sure of all the right side branches but it is possible to lose all including the one little pokie one on the right. The trick is getting some of this branching to bend down into position without hollowing out a portion of the upper trunk so that branch 3 could be made more upright. It is possible to take the top of the tree with some real heavy wire and a piece of rebar and bend the entire tree above #3 so that #3 is in a more upright configuration. I wish it were mine.
 
Top Bottom