Where to look at quality pots for inspiration and find dimensions?

[Thundie]

Basically working with someone who is great with ceramics and they're willing to teach me about it as we both try and learn bonsai pots.
I'd use my pots but most of mine are quite cheap ones until I get better/build nicer trees.

So yea looking for advice on things like wall thickness, I've read it's between 1-3cm, is that correct? Would also love some websites and direction of places to buy higher quality pots/browse to gain inspiration and learn the fine details of good pots.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[rockm]

The best way to learn about good bonsai pots is to go out and look/handle good bonsai pots. Nothing can beat actually holding a good or great bonsai pot in your hands in person. There is no real "one way" to make them or understand them. Practical things like wall thickness varies tremendously, depending on clay, size of the pot, etc.

You don't say where you are, so it's hard to point to an actual physical resource. I'd say first would be to go to an actual bonsai collection that has great bonsai, next find a club, ask if there's a club auction/sale where. I'd also tell them you're interested in bonsai pots. They might provide some resources.

There are a few pot importers online, particularly Facebook--there is also a bonsai pot forum on FB that can help tremendously.

One of the best sellers in the U.S. is Matt Ouwinga at Kaede En nursery in Maryland. He imports hundreds of pots every year. His ebay site is a good place to get a feel for what great pots look like. He buys from professional bonsai nurseries in Japan, so the pots on the ebay site are older, more classic containers.

 

[Thundie]

The best way to learn about good bonsai pots is to go out and look/handle good bonsai pots. Nothing can beat actually holding a good or great bonsai pot in your hands in person. There is no real "one way" to make them or understand them. Practical things like wall thickness varies tremendously, depending on clay, size of the pot, etc.

You don't say where you are, so it's hard to point to an actual physical resource. I'd say first would be to go to an actual bonsai collection that has great bonsai, next find a club, ask if there's a club auction/sale where. I'd also tell them you're interested in bonsai pots. They might provide some resources.

There are a few pot importers online, particularly Facebook--there is also a bonsai pot forum on FB that can help tremendously.

One of the best sellers in the U.S. is Matt Ouwinga at Kaede En nursery in Maryland. He imports hundreds of pots every year. His ebay site is a good place to get a feel for what great pots look like. He buys from professional bonsai nurseries in Japan, so the pots on the ebay site are older, more classic containers.

Ahh that's my bad, unfortunately I am in a Nordic nation and have no bonsai clubs near me. It's part of the reason I'm trying to learn how to make my own, as it's quite expensive to get things here, I guess I might need to bite the bullet and buy some nice ones, I just haven't had the need to cause my trees are still under developed.

Thanks for the links to videos!

 

[RJG2]

There are quite a few potters here as well. Many of which will be glad to offer advice.

Take a look through the pot making sub-forum (and post questions/progress there):

Pot Making

For discussion of the craft of making / manufacturing bonsai pots

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Thundie]

There are quite a few potters here as well. Many of which will be glad to offer advice.

Take a look through the pot making sub-forum (and post questions/progress there):

Pot Making

For discussion of the craft of making / manufacturing bonsai pots

www.bonsainut.com

Oh brilliant, I was actually looking for a pot section, seemed to search in the wrong place. Thank you!

 

[Paradox]

Bonsai Vision is a good online seller of pots if you want to see pictures

Bonsaivision.com

But I have to agree with rockm. It will be hard just looking at pictures

 

[rockm]

Ahh that's my bad, unfortunately I am in a Nordic nation and have no bonsai clubs near me. It's part of the reason I'm trying to learn how to make my own, as it's quite expensive to get things here, I guess I might need to bite the bullet and buy some nice ones, I just haven't had the need to cause my trees are still under developed.

Thanks for the links to videos!

Bite the bullet. GET at least one decent bonsai pot. They're a great investment for bonsai. They tend to hold their value and last a very long time if you're not a klutz. They will "outlive" most trees.

There is NO REASON not to get good pots just because you think your trees "aren't worthy."

Also, there are some really great bonsai potters in your region. Thor Holvila (I think he's in Sweden) comes to mind.

 

[BrightsideB]

Basically working with someone who is great with ceramics and they're willing to teach me about it as we both try and learn bonsai pots.
I'd use my pots but most of mine are quite cheap ones until I get better/build nicer trees.

So yea looking for advice on things like wall thickness, I've read it's between 1-3cm, is that correct? Would also love some websites and direction of places to buy higher quality pots/browse to gain inspiration and learn the fine details of good pots.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Start out with some small (4-5”) simple pots and graduate up in size and detail. This way you are more comfortable with your technique and method. Also you can test your pots for durability and absorption much easier. Making sure your on track to make some quality pots.

I figure you and your mentor can figure out a good approach and method since they already have experience and skill.

Here’s an example of one I just completed. The wall of this pot was thrown then trimmed, attached the floor, and then attached the feet. It’s a three day process for me as I juggle many pots at a time. Keeping them always covered allowing my connections to slowly fuse. As the feet are attached and the pot is now completed I cut the wire and drainage holes while the pot is upside down. Also I let them dry for a while like this. You can see all the wood required for support. For the larger pots it takes much more materials all around. This is just one method of many though.


Consider throwing pots first and attaching the feet. It’s a good way to get a feel for it and practicing making connections between pieces of clay.

 

[Thundie]

Bite the bullet. GET at least one decent bonsai pot. They're a great investment for bonsai. They tend to hold their value and last a very long time if you're not a klutz. They will "outlive" most trees.

There is NO REASON not to get good pots just because you think your trees "aren't worthy."

Also, there are some really great bonsai potters in your region. Thor Holvila (I think he's in Sweden) comes to mind.

Oh awesome, had no idea there was a fella in Sweden thank you!

Also do you think I should be getting nice Japanese pots as people seem to emphasise their quality? Or should I just get nice ones in general?

Thanks for the advice also, definitely makes me feel a bit better buying pots even if my trees aren't ready.

 

[Thundie]

Start out with some small (4-5”) simple pots and graduate up in size and detail. This way you are more comfortable with your technique and method. Also you can test your pots for durability and absorption much easier. Making sure your on track to make some quality pots.

I figure you and your mentor can figure out a good approach and method since they already have experience and skill.

Here’s an example of one I just completed. The wall of this pot was thrown then trimmed, attached the floor, and then attached the feet. It’s a three day process for me as I juggle many pots at a time. Keeping them always covered allowing my connections to slowly fuse. As the feet are attached and the pot is now completed I cut the wire and drainage holes while the pot is upside down. Also I let them dry for a while like this. You can see all the wood required for support. For the larger pots it takes much more materials all around. This is just one method of many though.

View attachment 523308
Consider throwing pots first and attaching the feet. It’s a good way to get a feel for it and practicing making connections between pieces of clay.

I really appreciate the advice thank you. Just had my two lessons, with first me making a little plant pot cover, and 2nd going for a bonsai pot or atleast making a similar looking one. We didn't have the right clay for this to be use outside so will be dedicated to an indoor plant I have, but it was good practice I think anyway. Thoughts on the 2nd thing I've ever made with clay?

I thought it was going quite well until I decided to add a rim, kinda went down hill and looked a bit dodgy from there. Sorry if the pictures are out of focus, I can't tell as I'm going blind.

Also, out of curiosity how is testing for water absorption done?

 

[BrightsideB]

I really appreciate the advice thank you. Just had my two lessons, with first me making a little plant pot cover, and 2nd going for a bonsai pot or atleast making a similar looking one. We didn't have the right clay for this to be use outside so will be dedicated to an indoor plant I have, but it was good practice I think anyway. Thoughts on the 2nd thing I've ever made with clay?

I thought it was going quite well until I decided to add a rim, kinda went down hill and looked a bit dodgy from there. Sorry if the pictures are out of focus, I can't tell as I'm going blind.

Also, out of curiosity how is testing for water absorption done?

Looks good!
I was going to explain the clay shrinkage and absorption test but this link will do much better.

Shrinkage/Absorption Test - SHAB

SHAB Shrinkage and absorption test procedure for plastic clay bodies and materials

digitalfire.com

 

[rockm]

Oh awesome, had no idea there was a fella in Sweden thank you!

Also do you think I should be getting nice Japanese pots as people seem to emphasise their quality? Or should I just get nice ones in general?

Thanks for the advice also, definitely makes me feel a bit better buying pots even if my trees aren't ready.

Get a good JAPANESE pot to begin with. Western potters can be great at making bonsai pots, BUT more than a few are still learning the ropes as far as workmanship and design. You will learn more from a stamped, kiln IDed Japanese pot than you will from a local potter who is simply punching holes in their casserole dish forms. Japanese pots of middle and high end quality, most always have excellent proportion and workmanship.

This sound snobbish, but it's not really if you have handled pots from both Western and Japanese sources. Japanese pots tend to have much better proportions than western pots. Western potters also overly rely on wheel thrown, round designs (which are hard to use with actual bonsai). Western potters are also learning how to do stuff like use appropriate foot designs, where to place drainage holes, how to incorporate rims on their pots and more front to back width. Not to mention how to effectively make rectangles and shapes other than round. Glazes on Japanese pots also tend to be more subdued and useful than those used by many Western potters as well.

This sounds like I don't like Western pots, but I actually PREFER them for my trees, as I have mostly collected native species for bonsai and GOOD western potters understand the less-formal approach those trees can have. Japanese pots have becothe last ten years, though. They remain the gold standard for bonsai pots.

 

[Thundie]

Get a good JAPANESE pot to begin with. Western potters can be great at making bonsai pots, BUT more than a few are still learning the ropes as far as workmanship and design. You will learn more from a stamped, kiln IDed Japanese pot than you will from a local potter who is simply punching holes in their casserole dish forms. Japanese pots of middle and high end quality, most always have excellent proportion and workmanship.

This sound snobbish, but it's not really if you have handled pots from both Western and Japanese sources. Japanese pots tend to have much better proportions than western pots. Western potters also overly rely on wheel thrown, round designs (which are hard to use with actual bonsai). Western potters are also learning how to do stuff like use appropriate foot designs, where to place drainage holes, how to incorporate rims on their pots and more front to back width. Not to mention how to effectively make rectangles and shapes other than round. Glazes on Japanese pots also tend to be more subdued and useful than those used by many Western potters as well.

This sounds like I don't like Western pots, but I actually PREFER them for my trees, as I have mostly collected native species for bonsai and GOOD western potters understand the less-formal approach those trees can have. Japanese pots have becoView attachment 523643the last ten years, though. They remain the gold standard for bonsai pots.

Thanks for the info! I have heard about the proportions aspect, in particular the thickness of the walls and the rectangular pots being hard to come by. Looks like imma buy myself a late Xmas present.

I noticed you shared the eBay link, are most pots bought from there? or are there places in the EU or Japan to buy from also? If so, how do you know it's real and IDed ? Is there a list of the IDs also?

Sorry for the many questions!

 

[JeffS73]

Your initial question is good, Rockm is right, and good info from brightside. I started importing Japanese pots for exactly this purpose, making my own pots, I wanted to know what made a good pot.

So, now I'm importing and selling more and making less, but hope to change this balance soon.

I can tell you every Japanese maker is different, some are so-so, others are simply incredible, but also, few western potters seem to have studied Japanese pots, which is a shame, there is a goldmine of learning there.

Next, I guess the question is do you just want it to not break, or do you want it to pass muster in Japan? How high have you set your sights?

For big reliable pots, look to Koyo. For technical mastery, Seizan (Tokoname) is hard to beat and fairly available. He managed to make large frostproof pots with thin bases (but not too thin), slightly thicker walls and again slightly thicker rims.

For Shohin, Koyo again for reliability. For quality Bigei and Hokido are good examples to start with and accessible.

Go to a show with trade stands, you can learn a lot there, but a lot of knowledge comes from handling many pots, and thinking. What did the potter do here? Why?

 

[JeffS73]

For a lot of what you have asked, I.e. stamps, go to Michael Ryan Bells site, Japanesebonsaipots.net - superb wealth of info there, sometimes slightly off on technical, but equally has some rare nuggets of info! topshelfbonsaipots good as well.

It's hard to convey how deep a rabbit hole bonsai ceramics is. At least as deep as bonsai itself, and the more inquisitive you are, the richer the rewards.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the info! I have heard about the proportions aspect, in particular the thickness of the walls and the rectangular pots being hard to come by. Looks like imma buy myself a late Xmas present.

I noticed you shared the eBay link, are most pots bought from there? or are there places in the EU or Japan to buy from also? If so, how do you know it's real and IDed ? Is there a list of the IDs also?

Sorry for the many questions!

No there is no 'central' place to get bonsai pots. Matt Ouwinga (who is the seller I linked to) is one of the best in the U.S. EVERYTHING from his site is excellent. He sources from bonsai nurseries in Japan, where he spent some time. There are literally thousands of places to get good bonsai pots, some better than others. Good ones can turn up anywhere including yard sales and estate sales etc. You simply have to keep you eye out or talk with bonsai folks about where to get them, or get to a bonsai show and find vendors.

A general 'need to know' rickety hardly thorough tutorial on bonsai pots :

The ID is typically a 'chop mark' on the stamped in the clay of the bottom of the pot before it is fired. IDing those marks is something of an art (and there are sites and pages devoted to it--although sellers frequently provide that info in their sales description) By and large any Japanese pot with such a mark is higher quality--Generally Japanese pots come from traditional kilns in different regions of the country. Tokoname is one of the most famous towns traditionally known for its ceramic kilns, as are Shigaraki, Bizen and others. Famous potters traditionally reside in those kiln towns, or make them their headquarters. The regions and towns with kilns have become notable for centuries because they're located near clay deposits. Bonsai pot making in Japan, unfortunately, is dying out as a trade, so new pots can be hard to come by. The market for older and antique pots is increasingly in Western countries . For the most part mass produced ceramic bonsai pots are unmarked (although some are). Some mass produced pots are great, some are not. Most of the inferior pots come out of S.E. Asia and China. Those usually accompany bonsai you buy in big box stores (Home Depot, WalMart, etc--although sometimes not).

There are also excellent Chinese pots coming from China, usually from Yixing province.

 

[milehigh_7]

@Thundie read this entire thread. Pot School

 

[RJG2]

@Thundie read this entire thread. Pot School

Agreed. I bought two of Paul's pots after reading that "just because".

 

[Thundie]

Your initial question is good, Rockm is right, and good info from brightside. I started importing Japanese pots for exactly this purpose, making my own pots, I wanted to know what made a good pot.

So, now I'm importing and selling more and making less, but hope to change this balance soon.

I can tell you every Japanese maker is different, some are so-so, others are simply incredible, but also, few western potters seem to have studied Japanese pots, which is a shame, there is a goldmine of learning there.

Next, I guess the question is do you just want it to not break, or do you want it to pass muster in Japan? How high have you set your sights?

For big reliable pots, look to Koyo. For technical mastery, Seizan (Tokoname) is hard to beat and fairly available. He managed to make large frostproof pots with thin bases (but not too thin), slightly thicker walls and again slightly thicker rims.

For Shohin, Koyo again for reliability. For quality Bigei and Hokido are good examples to start with and accessible.

Go to a show with trade stands, you can learn a lot there, but a lot of knowledge comes from handling many pots, and thinking. What did the potter do here? Why?

Thank you for the list of potters.

As for what my goals are, well I want them to be as high quality and as well made as possible, surviving the harsh Nordic winters, matching the trees I hope to one day have etc. Definitely very eager to learn. I mentioned higher up I am going blind, I'm looking for new hobbies and going back to school to learn a new career, I'm currently in a very big learning mode so I'm trying to get any info I can get.

Unfortunately there aren't shows near me, I'd love to go or to join a club etc. So most of my knowledge of bonsai comes from the internet with info from Eisei-en, Bonsai Mirai, Bonsai Q and a few others. Hoping to someday be able to get to Spain and see some of the amazing bonsai places there.

 

[Thundie]

For a lot of what you have asked, I.e. stamps, go to Michael Ryan Bells site, Japanesebonsaipots.net - superb wealth of info there, sometimes slightly off on technical, but equally has some rare nuggets of info! topshelfbonsaipots good as well.

It's hard to convey how deep a rabbit hole bonsai ceramics is. At least as deep as bonsai itself, and the more inquisitive you are, the richer the rewards.

Awesome, thank you for all your advice onces again!