Zuisho JWP progression thread

[Djtommy]

Nice work so far, I still think removing entire bottom right will improve the tree quite a bit.
The problem Oso is saying is maybe not visible in real life but on the picture the pads on the left are kinda connected to each other and I think that is the issue. If you can tweak to get some more air in between those it’ll probably be better

 

[0soyoung]

Nice work so far, I still think removing entire bottom right will improve the tree quite a bit.

I rather like what this does for the tree (even before the apex was styled = I'm lazy)!


Do you, @Djtommy, have an explanation (i.e., rationalization) of why this works? I'm beginning to 'get' some of the nuances, but this is another case of me not understanding why I like what I like. I would not have thought of it and was mistakenly dismissive of this idea the first time you mentioned it.

 

[Dav4]

I rather like what this does for the tree (even before the apex was styled = I'm lazy)!
View attachment 211027

Do you, @Djtommy, have an explanation (i.e., rationalization) of why this works? I'm beginning to 'get' some of the nuances, but this is another case of me not understanding why I like what I like. I would not have thought of it and was mistakenly dismissive of this idea the first time you mentioned it.

Movement

 

[0soyoung]

Movement

In this case, pretty much the same thing as asymmetry?
The movement of the trunk is unchanged, but the composition becomes left going (like a prevailing wind from the right, blowing the growth left) without the lower right branch? --> this kind of 'movement'?

 

[Adair M]

Movement

And, that branch comes from an inside curve.

Plus, there’s the design concept that the lowest branch should come from the smaller tree if a twin trunk tree. I suppose the same would be true of a triple trunk.

I’m not dismissive of the idea. I just spent all my free time over the past week getting thing wired, and initially styled. I wanted to see what it looked like styled with all the branches. I’m not good enough to envision how it would look before wiring!

(I have a friend, Daisaku Nomoto, who is! That’s the difference between a bonsai professional and a hack like me.)

As for the crowded appearance on the left, yes, it’s really apparent in the photo. Not so much in person. I am considering turning the tree a bit clockwise. That opens up the interior to differentiate the smallest trunk on the left, and hides the base of the middle trunk a bit. And, again, the photo makes that crotch area look worse than in person. In person, it’s more in shadow.

And THEN, both the secondary trunks are still juvenile bark, whereas the primary trunk is getting flaky. Especially on the lower section. This difference in bark character draws the eye. There’s little that can be done other than wait for time to fix that. (That’s one of the issues with JWP, they take a long time to develop good bark.)

@Osoyoung, thanks for making the virt! That looks better than my method of draping a towel over it!

Decisions, decisions...

 

[Djtommy]

In this case, pretty much the same thing as asymmetry?
The movement of the trunk is unchanged, but the composition becomes left going (like a prevailing wind from the right, blowing the growth left) without the lower right branch? --> this kind of 'movement'?

Even with the branch the movement(flow of the tree) feels left to me but without it become much more appearant and hence more dynamic. I think you should always strive for a dynamic image. Static really only works on a formal upright to me.

 

[Dav4]

In this case, pretty much the same thing as asymmetry?
The movement of the trunk is unchanged, but the composition becomes left going (like a prevailing wind from the right, blowing the growth left) without the lower right branch? --> this kind of 'movement'?

Yes, the flow to the left becomes stronger with the removal of that branch, and the subtle movement of the lower trunk becomes more noticeable, as well.

 

[Adair M]

I’m In favor of keeping the lower right branch. It kinda hides the lower main trunk a bit. Which, I think is a good thing because it doesn’t have much taper until the apex area.

I need to work on the lower left.

 

[Adair M]

I messed with the lower left:

 

[coltranem]

When I first saw Oso's virt I liked it but looking at it more it seems to give the trunk too much movement (the movement looks artificial). The lower right branch brings the movement back to scale. Granted either version looks better than anything I have but given the choice I like it with the lower right branch.

 

[Adair M]

If I removed the lowest right branch, the next one up is too high.

 

[Hartinez]

I messed with the lower left:

View attachment 211061

beautiful. The left flows from top to bottom so much better with that slight shift. And I too like the bottom right. Especially after you pointing out the trunk. Now that I’m looking I can see the lack of taper, but I didn’t notice it because the pads take my eyes.

 

[Djtommy]

I like how you did the apex, looks very good.
About bottom right, well everyone has their own opinion I guess which is good. And it’s interesting to hear others opinions
I’m still in favor of removal but look like I’m getting in minority offcourse it’s your tree so you should do what you like the most.
Just for the sake of the discussion, virtual with your finished styling

 

[Adair M]

I like how you did the apex, looks very good.
About bottom right, well everyone has their own opinion I guess which is good. And it’s interesting to hear others opinions
I’m still in favor of removal but look like I’m getting in minority offcourse it’s your tree so you should do what you like the most.
Just for the sake of the discussion, virtual with your finished styling
View attachment 211069

If the lowest right branch (actually the SECOND lowest) were a little bit lower or more substantial so I could pull it down a bit more, I might do it.

I’ll try to grow that second branch out a bit more for future styling flexibility.

 

[Japonicus]

Other than the calendar, another sign JWP are ready for work is the sheaths supporting the needle clusters have dried up and mostly fallen off.

Hi Adair! I like your project. I would've shy'd away from the multiple apexes
but given your talent...nice project Are either of the secondary apexes grafted in?

About the sheaths, I've noticed this on my EWPs, not knowing what I was looking at
but never noticed it on my Azuma. I do cut bundles when Fall "pulling" but the Azuma
tends to not bleed much, so I normally pull 2 and 3 yr olds, and cut newer ones to 1/16"
just to er on the safe side. I need new sheers, these newer needles tend to chew more now
with any sap residue.

I've a question on this though. In relation to moisture (we've had plenty of moisture this September).
If my trees are wet, is it best to wait for the roots to dry a bit, be it any type of pine, before removing needles other than 3 yr olds, or is it fine to start/continue the task while wet?
Will the roots being wet exacerbate bleeding with pines when pulling needles I mean?
This is normally our dry season, but tell that to the East coast, mainly the Carolinas...
I predict a splendidly gorgeous Autumn this year in this end of the country.

Stay tuned!

Sure will, subscribed. Many things to learn on WPs. Love that this is on its' own roots.

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair! I like your project. I would've shy'd away from the multiple apexes
but given your talent...nice project Are either of the secondary apexes grafted in?

About the sheaths, I've noticed this on my EWPs, not knowing what I was looking at
but never noticed it on my Azuma. I do cut bundles when Fall "pulling" but the Azuma
tends to not bleed much, so I normally pull 2 and 3 yr olds, and cut newer ones to 1/16"
just to er on the safe side. I need new sheers, these newer needles tend to chew more now
with any sap residue.

I've a question on this though. In relation to moisture (we've had plenty of moisture this September).
If my trees are wet, is it best to wait for the roots to dry a bit, be it any type of pine, before removing needles other than 3 yr olds, or is it fine to start/continue the task while wet?
Will the roots being wet exacerbate bleeding with pines when pulling needles I mean?
This is normally our dry season, but tell that to the East coast, mainly the Carolinas...
I predict a splendidly gorgeous Autumn this year in this end of the country.

Sure will, subscribed. Many things to learn on WPs. Love that this is on its' own roots.

There’s no grafts that I noticed on this tree.

I’ve never paid any attention to whether a recent watering affects the sap flow if needles are pulled. I think it’s more related to the season of the year. It also depends upon the cultivar of pine. Some tend to bleed more than others. You just need to learn the characteristics for each individual tree.

 

[Japonicus]

There’s no grafts that I noticed on this tree.

I’ve never paid any attention to whether a recent watering affects the sap flow if needles are pulled. I think it’s more related to the season of the year. It also depends upon the cultivar of pine. Some tend to bleed more than others. You just need to learn the characteristics for each individual tree.

You're right, the season, I just had never thought about working on a "wet" pine.
I can't wire, can't unwire, and my EWP minima in ground needs a lot of needles cut and a lot
of pruning. So, I will test the waters and see what the girls think. I only have 3 WPs for bonsai.
When I say I'd never noticed the sheaths falling off of the Azuma, means just that, a lack of
paying attention to the fine detail. Fine it is, compared EWP. I don't see any sheaths about
the bundles right now on it, where the EWPs have a few. This is good to know, thanks.

You said your next step (at one point in this thread) is to select and remove down to 2 buds.
Now is good time to remove, or after needle thinning? My Azuma, not sure which Azuma it is,
will have no needle pulling this year, but buds, multiple buds do exist.
EDIT: The tree is weak, but growing. Does that affect which buds are removed???
Keep stronger ones, or still just 2 lateral ones?

 

[Adair M]

You're right, the season, I just had never thought about working on a "wet" pine.
I can't wire, can't unwire, and my EWP minima in ground needs a lot of needles cut and a lot
of pruning. So, I will test the waters and see what the girls think. I only have 3 WPs for bonsai.
When I say I'd never noticed the sheaths falling off of the Azuma, means just that, a lack of
paying attention to the fine detail. Fine it is, compared EWP. I don't see any sheaths about
the bundles right now on it, where the EWPs have a few. This is good to know, thanks.

You said your next step (at one point in this thread) is to select and remove down to 2 buds.
Now is good time to remove, or after needle thinning? My Azuma, not sure which Azuma it is,
will have no needle pulling this year, but buds, multiple buds do exist.
EDIT: The tree is weak, but growing. Does that affect which buds are removed???
Keep stronger ones, or still just 2 lateral ones?

When I said, “buds”, I actually meant “shoots”, as in the shoots that grew in 2018. I generally thin those to two, if there are more than two.

Which ones to keep? I try to keep two that are about equal in strength. If any are exceptionally weak, I’ll usually remove thise because they’re likely to die off anyway. Often, there’s three. Two smaller ones on the sides, and a stronger central one. Usually, I’ll cut off the stronger central one, keeping the two smaller ones. Especially near the top of the tree. If on the bottom of the tree, those shoots are weaker. So, I’ll keep the strong center shoot and eliminate one of the other two. If one is pointing down, I’ll choose it for removal. Another way to choose is checking for other twigs that are on the branch. If there’s one farther back on the left, I like to keep an alternate “left, right, left, right” pattern going. So, I’ll remove the left one keeping the right one.

 

[Adair M]

When I said, “buds”, I actually meant “shoots”, as in the shoots that grew in 2018. I generally thin those to two, if there are more than two.

Which ones to keep? I try to keep two that are about equal in strength. If any are exceptionally weak, I’ll usually remove thise because they’re likely to die off anyway. Often, there’s three. Two smaller ones on the sides, and a stronger central one. Usually, I’ll cut off the stronger central one, keeping the two smaller ones. Especially near the top of the tree. If on the bottom of the tree, those shoots are weaker. So, I’ll keep the strong center shoot and eliminate one of the other two. If one is pointing down, I’ll choose it for removal. Another way to choose is checking for other twigs that are on the branch. If there’s one farther back on the left, I like to keep an alternate “left, right, left, right” pattern going. So, I’ll remove the left one keeping the right one.

Here’s and update:

Before cleaning:



After:

 

[coltranem]

@Adair M what are your plans for those lower left branches. It seems pretty busy and the first and second left branch seem to be competing with each other.