Yamadori Discussion

[JasonG]

"In any case, collected material is by no means the only source of material that will result in good bonsai. Many of the finest classical bonsai have been created from cultivated material. Notably, some of the great broom style zelkovas, some of the mountain and trident maples and a host of other examples can easily be seen if one refers to some of the earlier copies of the Japanese exhibition souvenir books. After all, where in the wild would one stumble across a yamadori zelkova or maple worth collecting?

Well since Zelkova and tridents happen to be native to China and Japan I would say one could find some in those areas worthy of digging. Problem with that is they can field grow designer ones faster then re-hanging limbs on a yamadori trident. I bet in the earlier copies of Japanese souvenir books one can see a change in the bonsai vs today. Evolution. The best yamadori are going to be conifers, unless you are in Europe or America where there has not been much collecting and the land is much larger than Japan.

Then Dan says this in near the end of his interview.... "There are bonsai image categories other than ‘ancient’ — eg juvenile, mature and old! What’s wrong with designing some of our bonsai to reflect some of these images that also exist in nature? For instance, would you say that a typical zelkova broomstyle tree represented an ancient image — of course not, it is far more representational of the juveile images of trees we see in our parks. Extend this analogy to other examples such as mature and old."

Yeah, I think I want to create a park like bonsai.... I had to laugh out loud when I read this! So here he is saying that we should also look at creating a juvenile-ish bonsai as well. Just because there are juvenile trees in nature does not mean they will make good bonsai. I would think someone of his stature would know that it is the old trees around the world that are the best in the world, Europe, America and Japan its the same. OLD Trees (99.9% are yamadori) are the best in bonsai, not a juvenile tree.....

Do not allow yourself to be seduced by the current international trend that considers yamadori material to be, the be all and end all, of good bonsai. That is rubbish and has only arisen because we in the west tend to be in such a hurry and at the same time we mustn’t discount the quick and lucrative turnover that can be obtained from the sale of bonsai created from collected trees. This latter point is, I think, getting closer to the real motivation behind creating bonsai from yamadori material. It sells well!

Hmmm.... rubish? I don't think so. The vast majority of the best bonsai in the world are yamadori. Yamadori demand the higher prices, why would this be???? Because they are the best for creating an old rugged bonsai that simply can not be done with nursery stock!!! I don't know why people haven't seen the light yet.... Supply and demand, more people want the best possible stock the world has to offer and for that a premium is paid, pretty simple really.
Not everyone selling yamadori is selling worked on bonsai. For example Oregon Bonsai doesn't work on the trees they sell, we want the new owner to create his/ her masterpeice. And not everyone is selling at super high prices......we happen to be the cheapest you will find.

The bone fide bonsai enthusiast who has neither the financial means to buy trees nor the ability to acquire collected material is quite content to bimble along enjoying the hobby without getting caught up in the ‘you know what!

Sure, not everyone can have the best trees, just like not everyone can have Bill Gates' welath.

Enormous pressures by the yamadori boffins is being directed at the whole of the bonsai scene and it is very difficult for ‘Mr Ordinary Bonsai Man’ to enjoy any credibility. This fact is doing so much damage to our hobby as its practice only caters for a very small minority of enthusiasts who have the financial means to pursue it. It is also setting such impossibly high standards of attainment that many aspiring bonsai enthusiasts are being driven away from the hobby because they are finding it too difficult to keep up and are often ashamed of their humble efforts. This really hurts me!

Ok, just like in little leauge they give trophies to the teams that don't win so it doesn't hurt any feelings!! Whatever, toughen up!! Same with bonsai not everyone is striving to be a master. Infact the majority are not and those folks are happy with thier trees no matter the source. This is due in part to it bieng fun and a hobby for them. I am sure they don't seek recognition either. The rest who are playing with that "unfair" yamadori that seems to hurt the feelings of the little guy who doesn't have access to it, well those are the serious folks striving to have the best collection and leading pack IMO.

Does anyone know of a person who left the hobby because they couldn't get collected trees? Just curious.

There are of course very many advantages in using yamadori material but remember it is mostly the quality of the trunk and mature bark or natural shari that is the prime attraction. If nebari (root ramification) and branching is to be considered this often falls short of ideal and some pretty ugly, over-heavy roots can exist and badly placed branches can too. With bonsai created from non-yamadori sources one can often gain far better control of the nebari and branch structure than is possible with collected material. There are of course exceptions to this!

True, the trunk, bark and shari can not be duplicated by man. This is the attraction to them. Branches and other flaws are easily dealt with.

Remember too that Mother Nature is mostly responsible for the design and quality of trunk character with yamadori material and not the bonsai artist."

Yes, and she does a great job!! You can not duplicate it in nursery stock, field growing, etc.... This takes nothing away from the bonsai artist who works with yamadori....

Excellent reflection on how we can change our environment, John. When we remove a two hundred year old tree from nature, it is gone, for all intents and purposes, forever. This is a subject not often brought up by bonsaists, maybe it should be.

Yeah, America is on a shortage of trees right now lol ..... There are more trees then anyone can even begin to imagine. Collecting trees for bonsai is in no way damaging the earth. If you want to change the world go after something that actually damages the enviroment... there are thousands of great causes out there.....

Is it the purpose of bonsai to create a tree that looks like a tree that has been growing in nature for two hundred years, or is the purpose to pot up a tree that has been growing in nature for two hundred years?Will

WIll, you know this is not possible right?

maybe bonsai shows should have trees that are collected in a seperate section. i sometimes wonder how many junipers are growing in the mountains of japan.john

Many of the junipers in Japan are collected in the mountains of Japan......



I respect Dan so don't take anything said the wrong way. I just think the yamadori argument is kind of strange for the fact that when you look at the best trees in the world.... they are collected. Every serious and famous bonsai-ist and famous collection of bonsai is made up of mostly yamadori. So when one sees the proof that this is the case why argue it?

I still believe that if you want to have the best possible collection of bonsai that you can possibly have it is made up of MOSTLY collected material.

FWIW, Jason

 

[grog]

Personally what I found resonating with me the most from Mr. Barton's AoB interview were his comments on internet bonsai forums and the need for "constructive criticism, mutual respect and refrain from the constant attempts to drag everything into the gutter".

 

[Anonymous User]

Then Dan says this in near the end of his interview.... "There are bonsai image categories other than ‘ancient’ — eg juvenile, mature and old! What’s wrong with designing some of our bonsai to reflect some of these images that also exist in nature? For instance, would you say that a typical zelkova broomstyle tree represented an ancient image — of course not, it is far more representational of the juveile images of trees we see in our parks. Extend this analogy to other examples such as mature and old."

Yeah, I think I want to create a park like bonsai.... I had to laugh out loud when I read this! So here he is saying that we should also look at creating a juvenile-ish bonsai as well. Just because there are juvenile trees in nature does not mean they will make good bonsai. I would think someone of his stature would know that it is the old trees around the world that are the best in the world, Europe, America and Japan its the same. OLD Trees (99.9% are yamadori) are the best in bonsai, not a juvenile tree.....

http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=773#773



Will

 

[Asus101]

Did someone say dead horse again?
Mom

I agree.

Im new to bonsai, my name is ben.
The thing i hate most about this argument of opinions is that no one will win. I have found myself extremely frustrated with it. What do i choose as a beginner? Nursery stock is crap im told, but working on a 400 year old pine is not very good to learn on.

Instead of squabbling like children over a toy, why don't you tell people your preference, why you like working on that stock, and what you think in regards to skill level?

As a beginner, seeing a bunch of "pro's" and wannabe's fighting each other over something which would be considered useless information is very disheartening. People looking for hard facts want to know the pros and cons of things, not a school yard fight.

Oh and no one likes a triple poster.
Learn 2 edit.

 

[Vance Wood]

If the information is useless then don't use it, or don't even go there. It's all about choices, all of us are free to choose. To all of you who think this is a dead horse argument then maybe it is because all you can comprehend is dead horses---just a thought. There have been enough people interested in this to post some pretty cogent thoughts about it, if this is above your thinking maybe you need to change the way you think but don't condemn the discussion.

As to the Yamadori discussion specifically; I think there is something that is neglected even here, without an artistic approach to the material I don't care how good the Yamadori is, or how old, or anything else about it, if the work that is done is not done artistically it will just be another piece of mediocre, albeit very old, middle of the road bonsai.

The argument that the very best bonsai in the world are Yamadori is true but there is something else true here; those very best Yamadori were styled and developed by the very best artists in the world. So it is nice and partially true that a serious bonsaist should work on Yamadori it is also true that Charlie Brown will probably not make a great bonsai out of a great Yamadori. It is a fallacy to think that the possession of a great piece of Yamadori stock is going to somehow make the owner, a great bonsai artist. A Yamadori does not come with some mystical blessing of talent to make it into a great bonsai. If you have not learned the skills, developed an eye for style or obtained the techniques necessary to make possible the impossible then it would be best to stay away from this stuff till you do.

 

[Rick Moquin]

It is a fallacy to think that the possession of a great piece of Yamadori stock is going to somehow make the owner, a great bonsai artist. A Yamadori does not come with some mystical blessing of talent to make it into a great bonsai.

... dang Vance you have just burst my bubble. I was getting ready to rent a truck, drive to CA and get me a few of them yamadori things and give 'em a whirl.

If you have not learned the skills, developed an eye for style or obtained the techniques necessary to make possible the impossible then it would be best to stay away from this stuff till you do.

... and in essence that is what Dan is saying.

There is a point that needs to be raised here. It is easy to recognize a good piece of material when we see one, it doesn't mean we have the talent nor the skill to develop it. How many times do we see these trees at workshops or conferences, where the owner is seeking styling advice? It is my opinion that if the individual needs someone else to style his tree, then he doesn't have the talent nor skill to look after it and continue in its development.

... so you now have a decent tree, now what.

However, theres is a difference between someone who has a clue and discusses with learnt enthusiast the "best" options and going for it.

 

[ianb]

As to the Yamadori discussion specifically; I think there is something that is neglected even here, without an artistic approach to the material I don't care how good the Yamadori is, or how old, or anything else about it, if the work that is done is not done artistically it will just be another piece of mediocre, albeit very old, middle of the road bonsai.

The argument that the very best bonsai in the world are Yamadori is true but there is something else true here; those very best Yamadori were styled and developed by the very best artists in the world. So it is nice and partially true that a serious bonsaist should work on Yamadori it is also true that Charlie Brown will probably not make a great bonsai out of a great Yamadori. It is a fallacy to think that the possession of a great piece of Yamadori stock is going to somehow make the owner, a great bonsai artist. A Yamadori does not come with some mystical blessing of talent to make it into a great bonsai. If you have not learned the skills, developed an eye for style or obtained the techniques necessary to make possible the impossible then it would be best to stay away from this stuff till you do.

Mmm and somehow this same doesn't apply to nursery material, I'd hazard to say it takes more skill and eye for design to develop the best nursery material into the best bonsai tree over 15 years than to design a yamadori over 5 years.

Not only do you need the requisite 'good eye' but you also need to know the process the tree has to follow over the next 15 years plus there are very few resources in the west that can guide you in this, so lets bump that up to 20-25 years to account for learning that will go on and mistakes that will be made.

Now this isn't to say this isn't possible but arguing that a crappy yamadori in unskilled hands is going to look worse than the best nursery material developed properly by skilled hands is rather specious.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Bill S]

The thing i hate most about this argument of opinions is that no one will win. I have found myself extremely frustrated with it. First off is it's a discussion about some passages in an article, MOST of us were having a discussion, then someone decided to poop on the parade. Second is YOU seem to contribute all you can to the feces that you berate.

What do i choose as a beginner? Nursery stock is shit im told, but working on a 400 year old pine is not very good to learn on. You don't choose to be a beginner, you choose to begin, if you make that decision there comes a learning curve.

Instead of squabbling like children over a toy, why don't you tell people your preference, why you like working on that stock, and what you think in regards to skill level? Thats exactly what we were doing until being RUDELY INTERRUPTED

As a beginner, seeing a bunch of "pro's" and wannabe's fighting each other over something which would be considered useless information is very disheartening. People looking for hard facts want to know the pros and cons of things, not a shit fight. Then do not participate, it only turns to the feces you mention when the sniping garbage begins. By the way looking at what the masses have to offer is a great way to learn, some need to learn how to learn, which typically means changing to be open to new or different ideas, or at least knowing that there are options, not a tunnel vision path.

Oh and no one likes a triple poster. N.O.Y.B.
Learn 2 edit.

As to your choice of language, and tactics here, well that just adds to your history here , for at least myself, I hope this is your last post, you do deserve to be banned, and I for one won't miss your contributions. Guess you know how I feel now.

 

[Chris Johnston]

to me the down side of collecting from the wild is that is that the beautiful masterpiece of mother nature is gone from its home forever. for people who enjoy hiking in the forests and mountains will miss a opportunity to reflect on that masterpiece of nature growing in its natural enviorment. john (new kid on the block)

While it is true that taking a tree from the wild deprives Mother Nature of her masterpiece, wild trees, even famous uncollectable ones like the Jeffrey pine pictured here by Ansel Adams from Sentinel Dome in Yosemite, die. They get hit by some unprecedented disaster. This one died in 1977 from a severe drought. The second photo was taken in 2002, before the trunk finally let go and fell. Its carcass is still there, the bare trunk sculpted beautifully by the wind.

My point is that if one has the ability to care for a collected tree properly, it is within our scope to ensure that it lives far beyond what it might have in the wild. I for one wish this tree had made it. Could anyone have done anything to save it? Outside packing water to it during the drought, no. Even then, who's to say that was the right thing to do?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/224779782_b0037fd0b3.jpg?v=0

 

[Chris Johnston]

"We" don't Chris, please feel free NOT to participate, especially if you insist on posting such off topic drivel, meant only to marginalize an otherwise serious discussion.


Will

If the information is useless then don't use it, or don't even go there. It's all about choices, all of us are free to choose. To all of you who think this is a dead horse argument then maybe it is because all you can comprehend is dead horses---just a thought.

My post was not off topic, it was terse and to the point. This will be hashed and rehashed until the end of time, mostly to hear the same viewpoints again and again.

For those in the know, replies of that kind of tone would never be allowed at Art of Bonsai or Knowledge of Bonsai.

 

[Anonymous User]

While it is true that taking a tree from the wild deprives Mother Nature of her masterpiece, wild trees, even famous uncollectable ones like the Jeffrey pine pictured here by Ansel Adams from Sentinel Dome in Yosemite, die.

Yes they do, and I think far more "masterpieces" die by the hand of inexperienced collectors then by nature. Just because A tree might die at the hand of nature (they all eventually will) is no excuse for collecting, this is an excuse used by many inexperienced people to justify collecting without permission, or to write off killing a tree because it eventually would have died anyhow.

My post was not off topic, it was terse and to the point. This will be hashed and rehashed until the end of time, mostly to hear the same viewpoints again and again.

Then by all means, don't participate, but give those who wish to discuss this subject further the common courtesy of having the opportunity to do so without such trivial interruptions. In short, if you are so tired of this subject, why are you posting in a thread devoted to it, certainly there are other threads that you want to read. Stop trying to end a dicussion you don't like, either contribute intelligently or move along to another thread you do like.

For those in the know, replies of that kind of tone would never be allowed at Art of Bonsai or Knowledge of Bonsai.

As one "in the know" on both the forums you motioned, I can say with all certainly that your off topic post degrading and marginalizing the discussion in progress would have been deleted on sight, in fact, I have personally deleted such trivial, off topic comments of yours a few times in the past.

We have found that deleting such posts that add nothing good to a discussion and only serve to distract, incite, criticize, condemn, or complain avoids the need to respond to such nonsense. Unfortunately, that policy is not in effect here, so it is only by reply can we point out such drivel.

May I also, since you used AoB and KoB as an example, point out that these silly flame wars, personal attacks, and off topic remarks designed to incite do not exisit there at all.


Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Yes they do, and I think far more "masterpieces" die by the hand of inexperienced collectors then by nature. Just because A tree might die at the hand of nature (they all eventually will) is no excuse for collecting, this is an excuse used by many inexperienced people to justify collecting without permission, or to write off killing a tree because it eventually would have died anyhow.

In this much I agree with you. As I mentioned, it takes the skills and knowledge to keep a collected tree alive that many lack. Unfortunately there is no innate "talent" that can make this happen. But if one does have the requisite ability, the goal, as I said, is for the tree to outlive in the pot what it might do in the wild.

I have said before, that I overheard a well known bonsai master, when told that collected trees were living only ten years, say, "That's good!" This is a terrible attitude and causing the death of one of these trees is nothing to take lightly.

My point was that taking it or leaving it was no guarantee of anything.

 

[Attila Soos]

As to the Yamadori discussion specifically; I think there is something that is neglected even here, without an artistic approach to the material I don't care how good the Yamadori is, or how old, or anything else about it, if the work that is done is not done artistically it will just be another piece of mediocre, albeit very old, middle of the road bonsai.

The argument that the very best bonsai in the world are Yamadori is true but there is something else true here; those very best Yamadori were styled and developed by the very best artists in the world. So it is nice and partially true that a serious bonsaist should work on Yamadori it is also true that Charlie Brown will probably not make a great bonsai out of a great Yamadori. It is a fallacy to think that the possession of a great piece of Yamadori stock is going to somehow make the owner, a great bonsai artist. A Yamadori does not come with some mystical blessing of talent to make it into a great bonsai. If you have not learned the skills, developed an eye for style or obtained the techniques necessary to make possible the impossible then it would be best to stay away from this stuff till you do.

Great post, Vance, it's worth re-reading it.

A bonsaist with not enough knowledge and sensibility, is likely to do more damage than good to an old yamadori. In that case, I would rather see the tree be left alone in nature.

 

[agraham]

We have found that deleting such posts that add nothing good to a discussion and only serve to distract, incite, criticize, condemn, or complain avoids the need to respond to such nonsense. Unfortunately, that policy is not in effect here, so it is only by reply can we point out such drivel.

Will

Actually Will,there is no "need" to point out drivel or to respond to nonsense.You have chosen to.The "policy in effect" here seems to be(fortunately) to let people chose what they wish to ignore and what they wish to digest.....oh yeah.....it seems to allow people to point out and respond to drivel and nonsense too.Unfortunately, pointing out drivel and responding to nonsense just leads to more nonsensical drivel as this post so ably demonstrates.


andy

 

[grog]

Awe...Now where is the fun in that?

Speaking of fun, I believe congratulations are in order for you.

 

[Attila Soos]

Unfortunately, pointing out drivel and responding to nonsense just leads to more nonsensical drivel as this post so ably demonstrates.

I agree. As we have seen, pointing out the nonsense of others only leads to more nonsense. It's just as bad.This has been proven time and time again.

(and my post isn't going to help either, since I have just responded to nonsense, like the rest of us)

 

[agraham]

I agree. As we have seen, pointing out the nonsense of others only leads to more nonsense. It's just as bad.This has been proven time and time again.

(and my post isn't going to help either, since I have just responded to nonsense, like the rest of us)

..and so it goes

 

[Vance Wood]

It is always the same four people. I don't understand this idea that something has to be dragged into the ditch, spat upon, stomped on and generally pilloried. If I had the time and the inclination I am tempted to go to all threads that I have no interest in and do the same that some have done here. Just because you (generically speaking) think the thread has no merit are you not demonstrating your ignorance and rudeness by interrupting those who are getting something out of the discussion by coming on the scene with dead horse arguments, and other mindless dribble? If you want to argue the merit, or lack there of,--go for it, that's what discussions are for. Anything less is a waste of your time and our time.

As far as the discussion of Yamadori is concerned I think it has been productive, intelligent, diverse and generally without ill will except for the questionable contributions by the same four mentioned above.

Let's look at it logically as reasonable people; if I think something is crapola I generally don't pick it up and put it on my plate, neither do I step in it.

 

[Anonymous User]

Actually Will,there is no "need" to point out drivel or to respond to nonsense.You have chosen to.The "policy in effect" here seems to be(fortunately) to let people chose what they wish to ignore and what they wish to digest.....oh yeah.....it seems to allow people to point out and respond to drivel and nonsense too.Unfortunately, pointing out drivel and responding to nonsense just leads to more nonsensical drivel as this post so ably demonstrates.

Andy,

I respond to such drivel only when directed at me and I certainly have that right. However, I should point out, that responding to such that one is not involved in, serves no constructive purpose what-so-ever. Maybe you could answer why some people feel the need to jump in and add fuel to the fire of such exchanges that they are not involved in, that is, until they jump in the middle? Your post, for example.

Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Just because you (generically speaking) think the thread has no merit are you not demonstrating your ignorance and rudeness by interrupting those who are getting something out of the discussion by coming on the scene with dead horse arguments, and other mindless dribble?

Amen.



Will