Nursery Stock Masterpieces

I'm with you on this to a degree.I think excellent,even world class trees can be created from regular nursery stock.Especially shohin.The problem I see with the material is not the material itself,but the rush to create something from it.
... and that is often the factor. Mistakes made at the onset often result in years to vercome if they can be overcome at all.

Walter's maple could have been a masterpiece if he had taken the base and started over instead of trying to create something using the existing structure.If he would have had the knowledge,determination and skills 30 years ago that he has now it would be a much better tree today.

I forgot to ask in my previous post. Walter having read the review of this tree on your gallery, why did you continue to work this tree? or yet why do you still have it in your collection? The tone in which you describe this tree is nothing favourable on your gallery, could you enlighten us with your thoughts?
 
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I forgot to ask in my previous post. Walter having read the review of this tree on your gallery, why did you continue to work this tree? or yet why do you still have it in your collection? The tone in which you describe this tree is nothing favourable on your gallery, could you enlighten us with your thoughts?

Rick,

it is out of sentimentality. This tree has followed almost all of my bonsai development. And, yes, it has helped me a lot to do what I do today. And I am determined to make it a pretty good bonsai eventually.
But I show this as an example what NOT to do.

Another thing is the personal opinion of an artist about his trees. It must never be too good. Otherwise there is no incenitve to improve. Whenever the time comes to choose trees for an exhibit I have this strange feeling of possibly failing to come up with a real good one. I see the faults still to be corrected in a tree clearly and somehow think that everybody else must see them. But finally I usually find the right tree. :D

I know this is as silly as the lady who has 300 night-gowns and says "oh my, I have NOTHING to wear!". But it sure helps to keep on going and improve trees.
 
Very true Walter but what does a child learn if one doesn't fall down and get up with a bloody nose? Well perhaps he learned that walking around with shoe laces untied results in a bloody nose! Will he/she learn from this, very few after the first instance, but repeated bloody noses will eventually get the point across.

We are often more critical of our own work, that is what aspires us to greater things, and why you do not display before it's time.
 
Because of the band width devoted to photographs. The photo display will be far better than anything that can be posted here even in the gallery.

This begs a question; Why are the most vocal detractors of this kind of venture also the least active in posting photos of their own work? After I have sat through a barrage of diatribe, criticism and negative feed back I often go to the members list and search out photos of some of these people's work to see if they even have a clue what they are talking about. I see no evidence for a great many of them. That of course does not mean they do not have credible trees to display but that they care more for the war of ideas than the demonstration of art. It would seem that they are more interested in tearing down the work of someone else than they are in creating bonsai of their own.

It doesn't beg any question other that the one asked, Vance. And,your first sentence answered it,if somewhat dishonestly.The quality of photos available here seems to be just fine for discerning whether or not a tree is "world class" and the discussion here tends to be much more lively and interesting.Less stilted if you will.Some like that and some don't.

Why start a discussion on one site,post pictures trying to prove a point on another and then ask the discussion to take place on the first?The honest answer...because it's a great idea for a gallery and why shouldn't Will put it on his own site rather than someone else's.And, steer the ensuing messy debate to another.No muss, no fuss.Just the cherry.I don't have a problem with that,why do you?

If you(since my question evidently "begged" yours) are speaking of me concerning one's own trees,then I would point out that I have posted pictures of my trees.The fact that they are not masterpieces,disqualifies me from stating an opinion no more than Will's trees disqualify his opinion,nor yours,yours.

As far as detracting from any venture....I'm not.I think AOB is a great site and achieves its purpose well.But,as Will has previously pointed out...AOB is not primarily designed for discussion.

I look forward to viewing the gallery and know it will be first class.

andy
 
With talent yes and this is a good example.


Walter I applaud you courage and candour in displaying one of your "dogs" so to speak.... Do you honestly believe that if it were not for this tree as part of your pilgrimage you would have achieved the wisdom you have aspired to? Do you honestly believe you had the talent back then to work on greater material? Through your own admittance not? Would greater material at the time provide better results? I don't believe so, as discussed great material in the hands of untalented individuals results in sub standard bonsai, whilst sub standard material in the hands of a talented individual results in a credible bonsai....

I believe the point here is that not everyone needs to reinvent the wheel. Of course we all need experience to grow, but there are also many shortcuts to knowledge. This forum is one of them. As one gains experience, one can also gain knowledge that will shorten and enlighten the path. For example, I have spent twenty years studying how pines grow in relation to bonsai from seedlings to trunk finished plants. I have actually performed the feat, all twenty years of it. This experience was immensely enriching. But does everyone have to do it? Of course not. One can read what I have written about it and spend five years applying it and then pretty much know what they are doing.

Can they get good trunk finished material in that five years? No. Can they find fifteen to twenty year old material to finish a tree in five years? Yes. By reading, studying, and observing, one can gain the knowledge of how to choose and handle material in a condensed and time saving fashion. Will they know the intricacies of what I know? No. Does it matter? Probably not, unless they want to grow material commercially.

I think this is what Walter is talking about. Obviously he had to learn the skills of bonsai just like the rest of us. Fortunately for Walter (and us) he did this quickly and with a contagious passion for the art. What he found out along the way is that it could have been a shorter path, just as I have. You can LEARN from our experiences without going down the same path. He is telling you to make recognizing and finding GOOD material a priority, because doing so will shorten and enrich your path. You can also grow from seed and cuttings at the same time for another type of fulfillment, but don't let this distract you from the art. Progressing quickly using good material, and all the other tools that you can muster will give you more time to enjoy really fine trees that you have created, and do it before you are too old to do the work anymore.

One of the things that us old farts learn (Walter and I are the same age, but I don't think he thinks of himself as old fart yet), is that life is really short. I was in my thirties when I started this, and I was pretty sure I was going to live forever. I made decisions in complete disregard for a limited life span or the limitations of my body as I aged. Boy, is that different now. These will just be words for the thirty-somethings reading this, but they don't have to be just words, you can plan a path based on their probable veracity even if though can't really imagine what it will be like to be in your sixties. How could you?

There is always something to be said for learning or doing something from 'scratch'. You gain a richness that others cannot possibly know. But you also waste a lot of time and energy. Our civilization has advanced because we don't reinvent the wheel for every individual, we teach our children that round things roll, and that a torus and an axle roll a burden with less friction. What took our ancestors ten thousands years to learn, we teach in ten minutes. The trick is to teach it so the head gets it and to learn it so that the hands can do it. Amazingly, this culture (and perhaps all cultures) still do a really lousy job of this.

To bring this back around to the discussion, can 'common' nursery material (without any intentional pretraining) become world class bonsai? Absolutely. The only thing that stands between any material and masterpiece status is time and talent. I'll leave talent to another day, but time is of the essence. Any gain you get from common material is going to be from sheer accident. The path from such material to masterpiece won't come from talent alone, but also from a deep and profound knowledge of the marriage of horticulture and the art. Most people don't get this. They think that just putting it in the ground for ten years and giving it a couple of chops will do the job. No. You have to spend just as much time learning how to grow material as you do in learning the art. There are all sorts of tricks, shortcuts, and pitfalls. Good growers know a whole lot of these, but people who devote their lives to growing probably won't have time to learn all the tricks, shortcuts, and pitfalls of applying techniques of the art itself.

I'm not passionate about the argument of yamadori versus nursery material despite the fact that I have spent most of my life learning how to grow nursery material. To me it doesn't matter from where the material comes, only what you do with it. Yamadori is just another one of those shortcuts, professionally prepared nursery material is another one. Common nursery material is not a shortcut, and in most cases isn't even less expensive in the long run. It's just an inefficient, longer way of getting there (hopefully) that can give you the real satisfaction of saying you did it yourself. Not a bad goal, but pretty much unrelated to really good art.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com
 
Another thing is the personal opinion of an artist about his trees. It must never be too good. Otherwise there is no incenitve to improve. Whenever the time comes to choose trees for an exhibit I have this strange feeling of possibly failing to come up with a real good one. I see the faults still to be corrected in a tree clearly and somehow think that everybody else must see them.

This perfectly captures my feelings about my bonsai. Even as I continue my bonsai journey and (hopefully) continue to improve, my trees will never be "perfect". I will never be satisfied with my trees, and conversely, never be satisfied with myself or my bonsai skills.
 
Common nursery material is not a shortcut, and in most cases isn't even less expensive in the long run. It's just an inefficient, longer way of getting there (hopefully) that can give you the real satisfaction of saying you did it yourself. Not a bad goal, but pretty much unrelated to really good art.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

...and this sentance seems to apply (IMO) to some, to the arguments going on here.
 
It doesn't beg any question other that the one asked, Vance. And,your first sentence answered it,if somewhat dishonestly.The quality of photos available here seems to be just fine for discerning whether or not a tree is "world class" and the discussion here tends to be much more lively and interesting.Less stilted if you will.Some like that and some don't.

Why start a discussion on one site,post pictures trying to prove a point on another and then ask the discussion to take place on the first?The honest answer...because it's a great idea for a gallery and why shouldn't Will put it on his own site rather than someone else's.And, steer the ensuing messy debate to another.No muss, no fuss.Just the cherry.I don't have a problem with that,why do you?

If you(since my question evidently "begged" yours) are speaking of me concerning one's own trees,then I would point out that I have posted pictures of my trees.The fact that they are not masterpieces,disqualifies me from stating an opinion no more than Will's trees disqualify his opinion,nor yours,yours.

As far as detracting from any venture....I'm not.I think AOB is a great site and achieves its purpose well.But,as Will has previously pointed out...AOB is not primarily designed for discussion.

I look forward to viewing the gallery and know it will be first class.

andy

You have a point about the pictures being posted here, but there is the issue of some snipping at every one of them---one at a time. I think this might be a little inhibiting.

As to your posting of pictures; if you have posted pictures then I was not talking about you, but others have not. An alternative Will might have would be to put up a gallery on this site, or embed the images. But the images needed to make the down load on direct posts are small and of low resolution.
 
This is the thread I was waiting for. Andy, you do me a disservice in saying I don't find the discussion worthwhile. And I think taking the word "masterpiece" to task unfortunately diverted a very good thread that I am enjoying. I like all the trees posted so far except for the Naka raft, and I have absolutely no problem with anyone posting their own trees to this thread as examples of bonsai from nursery stock, especially if they are as good as Behr's.
 
Damnit...I was really looking forward to seeing some nice trees developed from regular ole nursery stock.
 
As usual Brent am extremely well thought out and provocative response. I believe because of the Super Highway our individual apprenticeships are greatly reduced in comparison with folks that started some 20-30 years ago. Just the quality of some of the books since the arrival of the Internet, which permitted and extremely deep pool of knowledge and experience to be discussed amongst enthusiasts. The results, the reference material is getting better all the time, not all mind you, but the majority.

All the hard work from our forefathers has not been wasted, au contraire it has been cherished and questioned in order to quench this thirst for knowledge. As I mentioned, regardless of how much we love our children and how much we would like to shorten the path to wisdom, there is a certain degree they have to struggle through in order to achieve that wisdom. They need that bloody nose, because without it, they haven't felt the pain of a bloody nose, only ones explanation of one. Just like reading text books without any practical experience, results in a well read individual, but is he smarter than the average Joe? No! There need to be a delicate balance of knowledge against experience, in all phases of life, including but not limited to bonsai.

I see/read all the arguments, and all have presented great arguments. However, I will leave it there.

I am of the camp that respectable bonsai (I hate the word "World Class") can be achieved by quality material, regardless of the source. When it comes to the time to develop the material, well that is really a no brainer, pre-trained stock regardless of flavour will achieve the end in shorter fashion over anything else. However, great material in the hands of an un-seasoned neophyte, will not produce respectable results.

An individual that completes an Engineering Degree, who has spent 4 years in University is not an Engineer. He is an individual with an Engineering degree. So what is deemed a respectable timeline for a newly introduced enthusiast to acquire a "bonsai" education? We all know that our education in this hobby is never complete, but what is a reasonable time span, for such an education to take place.

IMO it takes anywhere from 2-5 years to learn the basics, dependent of course on the individual and his locale. During this time frame, what should the individual be learning on? Is he assisted or not? The latter question is an important one. There was an argument in Peter Warren's interview in which he stated that unless someone spends copious amounts of money on stock, that said individual will not take the necessary care to do it right, or a facsimile thereof. Although I have publicly endorsed Peter's interview I do have to condemn that particular statement, and for good reason.

Peter's entire bonsai education occurred as an apprentice in Japan.They have a totally different approach wrt to how they educate their pupils over there, once again openly admitted in his interview. After he spent months sweeping the nursery floors, weeding pots, and watering trees, and then only after demonstrated interest and knowledge was he permitted to work on trees (BTW not the prized possessions) did he begin his apprenticeship. IMO he had to demonstrate to his sensei that he had acquired the necessary talent and knowledge to work on more respectable trees/bonsai.

To me someone who is serious about this art is one that will endeavour to bring out the best in any piece of stock and not merely enter the journey nonchalantly, price IMO has nothing to do with dedication.

I believe the best and hardest lesson to teach anyone is patience, heck not just in bonsai, but in every walk of life. I believe this is more important than what stock the individual commences on. I further believe that anyone wishing to embark on this venture should belong to a club/society, study group etc... that would indeed reduce educational time.

The other factor that needs to be addressed IMO is to teach this individual how to recognize good material. This is, a one on one process not one that is easily achieved through discussion on a forum or in books. A 2D picture is only worth 666 words. We all go gaga over demos, but what do they accomplish? Wouldn't members benefit more of a class on material selection vice a demo, mind you a demo is first hand. Discussing the possibilities is an educational process in itself, but how many actually see the tree before folks start to comment on it.

If the individual cannot see the tree within a given piece of stock, regardless of the quality, will he/she bring out the potential of the tree, or turn it into mush? What if the individual is shown the path, but does not have the talent to take it to the next level? Take for example the Juni and Pine Walter has been working on of late. The owner is merely a caretaker/collector. These are fine trees but he does not possess the necessary talent to maintain them. He undoubtedly possesses the required horticultural skills, but falls short on the rest.

I further believe that there is a definite learning curve to this hobby of ours, one that we all have to endure through humiliation at times. To some this journey can be long whilst short to others. Until the individual sees the light, there is nothing we can do but continue to educate him/her on the errors of their way.

I have made many mistakes since embarking on this journey, and I have learned from them all. I am practicing this craft in total isolation, and the learning curve is steep, but through perseverance, the mountain is turning into a mole hill. The light has come on. I am more selective on what comes home these days. I have started to cull the herd. I have given many trees away and will continue to do so. Was I wasting my time? I don't think so. What did I learn? Enough to know the difference, between progressing and marking time. Will my trees be better for it? I think so.
 
Good Starter Material.....

....Well, this tells beginners that one of the most important skills to learn is to find material with good potential - anywhere.

I gotta side with Walter...the best and quickest path to better bonsai is with the best material you can find.

Had a conversation with Colin Lewis & Marco I. up at Bonsai West in November 2K7; one observation Marco made which will stick with me for a very long time was:
"...buy as old as you can when getting material..."

Flex / 4MAAT
 
Interesting thread.....

I hope Will is able to pull off a materpeice thread over at AoB since this one fell well short. To me it almost seems that every tree posted here is a good tree, some are better than others but none are world class nor "Masterpiece" as of yet.
Mr. Behr's trees were nice, but the walmart tree is a tanuki. Sure it was nursery material but had huge amounts of deadwood added to it. Without that the tree is not even good. Don't get me wrong, I love that tanuki and you did a wonderful job.
Yes I think you can make good bonsai from nursery material and there will even be that one in ten thoudand that make excellent or "masterpiece" bonsai.
Someone linked to the Ginkoo show, well most of those trees are yamadori.... great trees but don't add anything to the nuresery material is the best debate.

I have some excellent nursery material that will make good bonsai down the road (first stylings have just been done) but I feel they are not masterpiece and don't add much to the topic. Yamadori, now thats another topic.

I have no doubts there are good nursery trees out there that make good bonsai. But when you look at "Masterpeice" (and not Wills idea of masterpiece) bonsai as a whole where do the trees come from??? Monrovia, Wal Mart, local nurseries, the wild?????

My definiton of Masterpiece Bonsai, trees that are truely known masterpieces are most trees in Kokofu, Tiaken-Ten, Ginko Awards, Crespi, etc.... those are the prestigous shows that have the best of the best....


:) Jason
 
My definiton of Masterpiece Bonsai, trees that are truely known masterpieces are most trees in Kokofu, Tiaken-Ten, Ginko Awards, Crespi, etc.... those are the prestigious shows that have the best of the best....
These are no doubt the great avenues where these trees congregate, but in no means that because of their congregation they are masterpieces either. I love some of Kimuras work but would buy some of his other pieces just for kindling, and yes if I had the means, I would do exactly that. Yes that is harsh, and yes art is subjective.

Sharon Hill's Wisteria is the best I have seen to date, and considering it comes from nursery stock, should be awarded extra points, kudos to the artist. To some the balance is to symmetrical. This was a fine example of a world class tree, regardless of its humble beginnings. If there is one thing I deplore at these famous rendez-vous is the triangular Azalea that seem to be in vogue, give me a break.
 
This thread is close to a masterpiece in the art of Argument:D

I would be interested to see any other acomplished Bonsai artists show thier "one of my first trees that has grown with my experience and still lives and now has sentimental value"
I have a few that have been with me from the start a few years ago but only one that is much the same spirit of what I started with. I will have great pleasure in working this tree much as is for the next 20 years and seeing how good I can get it, but now have a better understanding of what better meterial is.
I would like to partialy quote someone who I can't remember thier name.
"If we are to accomplish marsterpiece bonsai in the western world we need to let go of the idea that we must create a bonsai from start to finish. It takes longer than 50 years to create a true masterpiece."

It is common and not just exceptable for a tree to have several owners it should be expected to create a true masterpiece.

My son's future masterpiece
 

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I gotta side with Walter...the best and quickest path to better bonsai is with the best material you can find.

Had a conversation with Colin Lewis & Marco I. up at Bonsai West in November 2K7; one observation Marco made which will stick with me for a very long time was:
"...buy as old as you can when getting material..."

Flex / 4MAAT

This is not precise enough. Your premise is true if the grower knows good material from bad material. If however; we are dealing with a noob, this entire concept goes out the window. There has to be some path way to knowledge followed before your above statement becomes relevant in any significant way.
 
This thread is close to a masterpiece in the art of Argument:D

I would be interested to see any other acomplished Bonsai artists show thier "one of my first trees that has grown with my experience and still lives and now has sentimental value"
I have a few that have been with me from the start a few years ago but only one that is much the same spirit of what I started with. I will have great pleasure in working this tree much as is for the next 20 years and seeing how good I can get it, but now have a better understanding of what better meterial is.
I would like to partialy quote someone who I can't remember thier name.
"If we are to accomplish marsterpiece bonsai in the western world we need to let go of the idea that we must create a bonsai from start to finish. It takes longer than 50 years to create a true masterpiece."

It is common and not just exceptable for a tree to have several owners it should be expected to create a true masterpiece.

My son's future masterpiece

As per your request. Mugo Pine which I have had for over thirty-five years or more. One of the first trees I obtained after getting out of the Army. Cultivated from nursery material and in the process of being redesigned. Major reduction was accomplished last year. Root reduction will take place this year if the tree responds well in the spring.
 

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Vance, Why would a tree grown as bonsai for 35 years be having major root reduction to it 35 years later? I do major reductions in the first few years and make sure that what I am going to spend my time with will fit into a pot ASAP.

Maybe you could give us a better breakdown of what you reduced so it makes more sense.

Cheers, Al
 
Thanks kindly Vance
It seems like this tree is again going through a magor work over considering it has unfinished jins on it.
I will take a guess that you let it grow out(in a large pot or even in the ground?) hence the need to reduce the roots again.
Any chance of a a starter photo. Did they have Digital 35 years ago!:eek:
 
Vance, Why would a tree grown as bonsai for 35 years be having major root reduction to it 35 years later? I do major reductions in the first few years and make sure that what I am going to spend my time with will fit into a pot ASAP.

Maybe you could give us a better breakdown of what you reduced so it makes more sense.

Cheers, Al

The root system is in need of reduction for two reasons. One: because of some medical problems of mine and the size of the tree it is two to three years past due for repotting. Two: The tree was substantially larger than it is now and the root system needs to be brought down in proportion to the rest of the tree.
 
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