Do you come to a discussion forum for the truth or an attaboy?

[Vance Wood]

I like this post of yours...hope you know it applies to you too.


I love it when someone cannot say anything else to dispute facts so they pull their years of experience "card". It really makes my day and gives me a smile.

Good I try to please. Hubiris will fill it's own toll. It is interesting however that you think experience is a fault and should be ignored. I hope you never try to learn how to fly an airplane.

 

[jkd2572]

I have a friend who flys planes extremely well and has only been at it for a couple of years.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have a friend who flys planes extremely well and has only been at it for a couple of years.

That's possible but I bet he did not get his pilot's liscense from a crackerjack box.

 

[Smoke]

However something can be learned from them nonethless without risking 1000s of dollars on great material.

The risk is less if the tree dies because it cost significantly less and I am more comfortable working on a cheap tree right now because if it dies, I'm out $50 instead of $500.


Its just a bit daunting for a newbee to go out and spend $500 on a piece of material that they have no idea what to do with yet.
In time, as I learn and my confidence grows, Ill get better material.

Here is the crux of the matter. You mentioned thousands and then $500.00 twice. Do you feel if you spend that much your material will be better?

We have been down this road before. Spending huge sums of money does not guarentee results. It just makes failure hurt more. In all my ranting over the last couple days, I have never mentioned that the fix all to any problem was to spend lots of money. The fix is just buying the best material you can afford. Take the guy that spent $100.00 on the maple with the slingshot trunk. In one post here he could have gotton 20 replies on what to buy and what not to buy.

Knowing when to be defensive, because you are armed with the knowledge to back it up and being defensive when one does not have a clue what they are talking about and just takes it personal is two different things.

 

[Poink88]

Good I try to please. Hubiris will fill it's own toll. It is interesting however that you think experience is a fault and should be ignored. I hope you never try to learn how to fly an airplane.

Who told you that? What I believe is that not all experience are correct or the best way to do things.

Let me share a story. First month or so in a construction job site, I noticed something wrong. Called the carpenter/mason foreman working on it and told him it is not right. He responded that he has been doing it this way even before I was born. I could have taken that and spend thousands of dollars to redo the job if the client rejected it. But I told him that DOING THINGS WRONG FOR DECADES DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. And EVEN IF IT WORKED, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. He can correct it or pack his bag and leave the job site.

I believe, same applies to everything. Sometimes, even the snotty newbie have something credible to share (but it is very hard for some to accept that).

 

[Smoke]

Oooohhh I feel something witty from Vance is on the horizen, This may be the best yet. Something to add to my Vance Quote Archive Page


Don't let me down son....

 

[Smoke]

****No pressure****

 

[Poink88]

Vance, I have to go to bed...so if you post and not get a response right away...it doesn't mean I am doing a research. LOL

Good night!

 

[coh]

Oh come on, I'm sure you can post in your sleep.

 

[Paradox]

This excludes that nice black pine you picked up like 1 1/2 months ago.

Rob

The tree to which Rob is referring:

 

[Paradox]

Here is the crux of the matter. You mentioned thousands and then $500.00 twice. Do you feel if you spend that much your material will be better?

I mentioned 1000s because I feel that it would be best to have more than one tree alone to work on. At least 3-4 different ones anyway. The $500 figure was an amount thrown out as an example for one tree.
I would like to learn about several species. If I had to force myself to learn them one at a time and only one tree at a time, I would never live long enough. As it is, I still may not live long enough to learn all I would like to learn. But Im going to try and learn as much as I can.

We have been down this road before. Spending huge sums of money does not guarentee results. It just makes failure hurt more. In all my ranting over the last couple days, I have never mentioned that the fix all to any problem was to spend lots of money. The fix is just buying the best material you can afford. Take the guy that spent $100.00 on the maple with the slingshot trunk. In one post here he could have gotton 20 replies on what to buy and what not to buy.

No it doesnt guarantee results. I still think its better to learn basic techniques on cheaper material than to risk ruining something that actually could become a nice tree, potentially setting it back years if not totally destroying it because of a rookie mistake. Too many of those expensive mistakes could drive a newbie out of the hobby faster than they started. I still maintain that trees respond to pruning, repotting, decandling, etc in the same way regardless of how much money they cost. If someone wants to start learning on cheaper material before moving on to more expensive and nicer stuff, I dont see where that hurts them and when they do kill a few trees in the beginning, its less of a loss. Its not just a matter of what you can afford, but what you are willing to lose if it dies and how confident you are with keeping it alive. Of course any tree can die, but the risk is greater for someone new.

Knowing when to be defensive, because you are armed with the knowledge to back it up and being defensive when one does not have a clue what they are talking about and just takes it personal is two different things.

No arguement there. I dont think you are talking to me per se because I dont recall ever becoming defensive about a tree. If you thought I was being so, well thats your misinterpretation.
I have never said or pretended that I knew more than I did anywhere on these forums.

FYI: Im going on vacation after tomorrow, so I may not be around for a few days to continue with this discussion. Although I think it might have been pretty well chewed by now.
Just didnt want you to think I got all offended and stopped posting or something. Thats not the case.

 

[Smoke]

No definately not talking about you. Just about being defensive on the net.

I still think we need a little more work on our goals. I still think money is too much the issue.


I just photographed this elm semi cascade I have been working on for three years. It was started from a root cutting. Nothing special, no huge grafting, some wire occasionally but for the most part just clip and gro. The tree is three inches tall.

This little tree was absolutely free. No money was spent. The point is, when picking material for any purpose in bonsai its all about the choice rather than the price. A person does not have to spend great gobs of money to have a nice bonsai. All it takes is some time, a good eye, and passing the crap by and picking out that which will serve your purpose.

Here is the rub, I still see many here weekly here BUYING things with no actual plan in mind for that which they purchased. I don't care what anyone says that is just plain silly. If you have no clue what you are going to do the minute you go home from the store, then maybe you should pass that one by. A person should not be just buying willy nilly. There is more that enough good information here on how to choose a piece of material that will make a good bonsai.


This might be a good time to post some three year old projects?

 

[GerhardG]

Here is the rub, I still see many here weekly here BUYING things with no actual plan in mind for that which they purchased. I don't care what anyone says that is just plain silly. If you have no clue what you are going to do the minute you go home from the store, then maybe you should pass that one by. A person should not be just buying willy nilly. There is more that enough good information here on how to choose a piece of material that will make a good bonsai.

Not always, this Chinese Elm is an 18 month old air layer off a nursery tree, finding Chinese Elm for sale in my country was a huge moment, and I would've bought it no matter what it looked like.
If "I'm going to air layer the crap out of it" counts as a plan then yes, but I don't think that's what you meant

 

[elliott]

"This is a hobby, after all".[/QUOTE
It's more than a hobbie to some. It can be a way to pay the bills for a lucky few, or a way of life, or all of that.
I seems all I can think about is these crazy trees ( I have had other interest's I would consider hobbies, like herpetology and fishing ), but I'm so obsessed with this. I don't know why, can't explain it. I have a job in the medical field that I used consider interesting, but it's now just a way to let me get to crushing trees.
I am putting an evil scheme in the works to be able to do a lengthy aprentiship, so maybe I can crush trees 24/7 for the rest of my life.
Maybe by some people's definition, what I do with bonsai now ( my bonsai teacher would tell you what I do with bonsai now is laughable ),is a hobbie, but it feels way more than that. Maybe I am a true addict.
I like what smoke and Attilla post, even if I don't always agree with it. There are a couple who post regularly who make me not want to visit bonsai forums, but usualy, the good outweighs the bad.

 

[elliott]

"This is a hobby, after all".[/QUOTE
It's more than a hobbie to some. It can be a way to pay the bills for a lucky few, or a way of life, or all of that.
I seems all I can think about is these crazy trees ( I have had other interest's I would consider hobbies, like herpetology and fishing ), but I'm so obsessed with this. I don't know why, can't explain it. I have a job in the medical field that I used consider interesting, but it's now just a way to let me get to crushing trees.
I am putting an evil scheme in the works to be able to do a lengthy aprentiship, so maybe I can crush trees 24/7 for the rest of my life.
Maybe by some people's definition, what I do with bonsai now ( my bonsai teacher would tell you what I do with bonsai now is laughable ),is a hobbie, but it feels way more than that. Maybe I am a true addict.
I like what smoke and Attilla post, even if I don't always agree with it. There are a couple who post regularly who make me not want to visit bonsai forums, but usualy, the good outweighs the bad.

(my rant was supposed have had a qoute from Attila Soos from his comment on like the 4th page of this topic, but I screwed it up. Probably thinking about a tree -sorry I spelled your name wrong, Attila)

 

[Poink88]

If you have no clue what you are going to do the minute you go home from the store, then maybe you should pass that one by.

Sorry but I disagree. Some takes time to sink in before you see the direction to take. Well that is the case with me at least.

I collect free plants and I just know I have to get some w/o any plans. I come home and I scratch my head where the front is (or design for that matter)...sometimes for months then it hits me one day. After turning, changing angles, etc. for thousands of times. There are several on my yard that I still have no design idea. That is okay, I just keep them alive for now.

Hopefully when we are as experienced as you, your statement will become true for us too. Something to look forward to.

 

[Anthony]

hee hee Dario,

I agree with you, there is no formula, no rhyme or reason, to getting a plant. Sometimes you see something and it appeals to you, later on you wonder why did you get that thing.
Other times, when in the drain collecting, something pops out, it may go home.

Here is an example of a Ficus p. collected because it was growing in heavy shade, in the joint of a large tree, just 2 feet above the ground. It was however, also growing where someone used to go for medication, as he had bronchitis, as a young boy. Air was too humid and cool for his lungs. It cleared up when he moved, to the seaside.

"Aha, so you collected it because of a memory."

Now it performs the duty of the second duty of testing the ball-bearing idea and showing how little compost is needed for a ficus to remain healthy and growing, or how little soil, pot is only abut 1" deep.

This could also be a 3 year ongoing project.

The real trick is -- how much yard space do you have, and time to tend.
Good Morning.
Anthony

*Getting around to the images of the Texas Ebony for you. Weather down here is rainy.

 

[Vance Wood]

Who told you that? What I believe is that not all experience are correct or the best way to do things.

Let me share a story. First month or so in a construction job site, I noticed something wrong. Called the carpenter/mason foreman working on it and told him it is not right. He responded that he has been doing it this way even before I was born. I could have taken that and spend thousands of dollars to redo the job if the client rejected it. But I told him that DOING THINGS WRONG FOR DECADES DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. And EVEN IF IT WORKED, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. He can correct it or pack his bag and leave the job site.

I believe, same applies to everything. Sometimes, even the snotty newbie have something credible to share (but it is very hard for some to accept that).

And so we see the mind set involved in the invention of the Square Wheel. The undying belief that everything you do, or think, or suggest is absolutely right just because it was your idea. Hell; with the idea that you have absolutely no proof of anything you say it is only necessary that you say it because if you say it------it must be true.

You still work for the same construction company?

 

[Poink88]

Vance,

I know I have been wrong but I also know everyone can be wrong. Thus the premise that everyone can be questioned. No one is perfect.

 

[Poink88]

You still work for the same construction company?

Nope, though they were sad to see me go if that helps. I have to move on...something to do with REAL life.