Pick the front of this western juniper!

[markyscott]

Couple of updates

Fall and time for some wiring. Couple of major bends and wired out some branches.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

Forgot to update this thread when I wired it out back in June. Here's a pic from the front we chose. Did we make the right choice?


Hope to visit it again in January.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Forgot to update this thread when I wired it out back in June. Here's a pic from the front we chose. Did we make the right choice?
View attachment 84682

Hope to visit it again in January.

Scott

Did I miss who you said your teacher was? Was just curious?

I would have to see this tree with the new style from different angles to see what is going on up top... for me personally I think you have a pretty challenging piece of material to try and get into a cohesive design... And I am not quite sure the style you currently have solves the issues...

Let me first say that clearly this is subjective and not meant as an insult, merely a critique... not to mention I am merely looking at a photo over my phone. And understand that in person it might look totally different.

I think you are leaving to much of the very straight section of the trunk showing. With this much real estate, the tree's trunk begins to loose interest. You have a really nice bit of movement in the section crossing over the front of the trunk from right to left about half way up. This helps break up what would otherwise appear to be an even straighter trunk. Visually, what this does is act as a stopping point for one's eyes going up the length of the trunk. .. it then takes your eye visually to the left and onto the foliage... problem is that one's eye immediately wants to then return to continue following up the remaining portion of the trunk...

The problem here, is I think one needs to ask oneself do you want our eyes to return to see the rest of the trunk? And do you need them too? I don't think you do...
I would almost like to hide this area above the crossing over section with some foliage and allow the deadwood bits to pop out above the top.

Which leads me to my next point... I know that alot of folks on the west coast like to leave alot of negative space within their tree's design so the birds can fly through.... but when I stepped off the plane in Sacramento last year for the ABS /GSBF Convention I was immediately confronted by trees one could of flown the 747 that I had previously been riding on, through a lot of the negative space I saw within the trees... I think some tightening up of the overall trees I saw would of greatly increased the strength of their designs and made the trees that much more powerful!

So, I have to then ask... does one really need the continuation of the trunk with the leader you have wired up? Does the tree need to be any taller? I don't feel it does... I think this would take years upon years of growth to even get to a width that is even close to the size of the trunk, and until that time it will always have a toothpick feel. For me it is not needed... less is more. The foliage directly to the left already would make a perfect apex height.

If one follows the line established from this foliage down to the foliage on the lower right hand side of the tree, you will find this line directly flows with the line of the lower crossing over section of the trunk I previously mentioned, adding stability... and balance to an otherwise chaotic piece of material.

In nature patterns don't regularly happen... however the human mind and eyes like comfort and symmetry... one can have a very wild off the top design as long as there is some form if this symmetry.

Lastly, I think you can bring down the left branches a bit to further compact the trees design.

Again, only offering up a critique. Nice work!

 

[markyscott]

Thanks for such a long and thoughtful post Sawgrass. Generally when I post a tree I get a comment or two and it disappears until the next time I update it. I REALLY appreciate your feedback.

Did I miss who you said your teacher was? Was just curious?

I have a lot of teachers, but I work with Boon on this tree.

I would have to see this tree with the new style from different angles to see what is going on up top... for me personally I think you have a pretty challenging piece of material to try and get into a cohesive design... And I am not quite sure the style you currently have solves the issues...

I only have one photo taken after the rough styling from a slightly different angle. Here it is:



Scott

 

[markyscott]

So, I have to then ask... does one really need the continuation of the trunk with the leader you have wired up? Does the tree need to be any taller? I don't feel it does... I think this would take years upon years of growth to even get to a width that is even close to the size of the trunk, and until that time it will always have a toothpick feel. For me it is not needed... less is more. The foliage directly to the left already would make a perfect apex height.

If one follows the line established from this foliage down to the foliage on the lower right hand side of the tree, you will find this line directly flows with the line of the lower crossing over section of the trunk I previously mentioned, adding stability... and balance to an otherwise chaotic piece of material.

In nature patterns don't regularly happen... however the human mind and eyes like comfort and symmetry... one can have a very wild off the top design as long as there is some form if this symmetry.

It's a good point - the plan Boon and I discussed was to lower that apical branch way down to be a new branch on the right and to use the foliage you mentioned as the apex. This has to be done with care because it's the only foliage supporting an important live vein. Two challenges prevented us from doing it on that visit. First, Boon felt the branch was weak and second, there is a fair amount of deadwood that will have to be carved away to lower it. So we decided to leave it upright for now and let it gain strength. I'll try and lower it this winter.

Lastly, I think you can bring down the left branches a bit to further compact the trees design.

This is a great point. Looking at these pictures in retrospect, it is of course correct. I'll definitely lower them some more on my next visit.

Scott

 

[LanceMac10]

This is a nice tree and if it were mine I wouldn't cut anything!!

Buuuuttt.......that interesting dead wood low seems to be your focal point.
sawgrass says get it low, wiring up a lengthy apex is confusing my eye.
I don't know a lot about design, but it's nice to have someone take the time to post a response!!
So here it is...

 

[markyscott]

I think you are leaving to much of the very straight section of the trunk showing. With this much real estate, the tree's trunk begins to loose interest. You have a really nice bit of movement in the section crossing over the front of the trunk from right to left about half way up. This helps break up what would otherwise appear to be an even straighter trunk. Visually, what this does is act as a stopping point for one's eyes going up the length of the trunk. .. it then takes your eye visually to the left and onto the foliage... problem is that one's eye immediately wants to then return to continue following up the remaining portion of the trunk...

The problem here, is I think one needs to ask oneself do you want our eyes to return to see the rest of the trunk? And do you need them too? I don't think you do...
I would almost like to hide this area above the crossing over section with some foliage and allow the deadwood bits to pop out above the top.

This is an interesting thought and one I hadn't considered before. I like the idea of building the branch on the left with this objective - we'll see what new growth I have to work with this winter. But I can already see it could be accomplished by bending some of the existing branches.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Thanks for such a long and thoughtful post Sawgrass. Generally when I post a tree I get a comment or two and it disappears until the next time I update it. I REALLY appreciate your feedback.



I have a lot of teachers, but I work with Boon on this tree.



I only have one photo from a slightly different angle. Here it is:

View attachment 84685

Scott

Yeah see... with the this photo the tree takes on a totally different sense of scale! This is why I said I would like to see it from another angle. Seeing the tree from this different angle changes my view of the overall height of the tree. I now don't mind it as much, but do feel that perhaps if some of it was removed and made a little shorter, I can see how even left in it's current position, it would still work with the design that I spoke of. The leader covered at the base in this photo with foliage takes away the transition form a large trunk to a small continuation of the trunk that I previously spoke of... so, I would try and keep this in mind with your original front. If you can position some foliage where it obscures this section, it works.

 

[A Random User]

It's a good point - the plan Boon and I discussed was to lower that apical branch way down to be a new branch on the right and to use the foliage you mentioned as the apex. This has to be done with care because it's the only foliage supporting an important live vein. Two challenges prevented us from doing it on that visit. First, Boon felt the branch was weak and second, there is a fair amount of deadwood that will have to be carved away to lower it. So we decided to leave it upright for now and let it gain strength. I'll try and lower it this winter.



This is a great point. Looking at these pictures in retrospect, it is of course correct. I'll definitely lower them some more on my next visit.

Scott

Is there a way to leave the leader where you have it, and yet be able to grow out instead a branch that would serve the same purpose, that being another branch on the right hand side? If so, than it would be definitely a safer route forward on a piece such as this with some age.

 

[markyscott]

Is there a way to leave the leader where you have it, and yet be able to grow out instead a branch that would serve the same purpose, that being another branch on the right hand side? If so, than it would be definitely a safer route forward on a piece such as this with some age.

Sure, I think so. And grafting is always an option if I don't get something to branch out there. I definitely don't want to lose that live vein - very important for the tree. It's good to go slow with an old tree like this. Helpful that it's in one state and I'm in another. When I visit in January I'll see what my options are.

Thanks again for your thoughtful feedback.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Here is what I am kinda thinking...
I did remove some of your bottom left jin, which I felt was a little to intrusive into the placement of the branching on the left side. with this virt, I did not bring the branching down on the left, which could be done. I left your top leader for the most part as is... added some more foliage on the right side. added a tuff of foliage right in the center of the trunk to brake up the continuation of the trunk as previously mentioned... I see you do have some foliage above, so at a future time perhaps a branch could be brought down into this area? Lastly there is a section right smack dab in the center of your trunk that I feel could really use a little hollowing out... not obviously a hole all the way through, but a recess the mimics the recess directly above and helps break up the straightness of the trunk, giving a swoop to the left.

 

[A Random User]

Sure, I think so. And grafting is always an option if I don't get something to branch out there. I definitely don't want to lose that live vein - very important for the tree. It's good to go slow with an old tree like this. Helpful that it's in one state and I'm in another. When I visit in January I'll see what my options are.

Thanks again for your thoughtful feedback.

Scott

Not a problem... cool tree!
Did a virt for a possible path forward in the post above.
Good luck, keep us updated!

 

[markyscott]

Not a problem... cool tree!
Did a virt for a possible path forward in the post above.
Good luck, keep us updated!

Really like what you did on that virt and helpful for me in seeing your meaning about obscuring the crossing dead wood. Thanks for taking the time - excited to head back and work on my trees there.

Scott

 

[A Random User]

Really like what you did on that virt and helpful for me in seeing your meaning about obscuring the crossing dead wood. Thanks for taking the time - excited to head back and work on my trees there.

Scott

The crossing deadwood does not bother me as much, I just think you need to try and break up some of the view of the trunk above it. This helps bring the overall size of the look of the tree down. and actually makes the tree feel smaller, even though I left it the same size.

 

[markyscott]

A bit more wiring. I wish I had one more day to finish up. I always need extra time on the apex. I moved the front a bit further to the right - better curve and nebari. Then I removed much of the old wire and rewired the lower branches. Ran out of time when I got to the apex. Perhaps next fall.

And to Sawgrass I had a closer look at the branch you suggested developing to interrupt the trunk line. I will develop a pad there - existing branch is too thick though. I had tried to bend I a couple of years back, but there was too much deadwood to move it as far as it needs to grow. I'm developing a replacement that will put a pad very close to where you suggested.



Scott

 

[markyscott]

A year and change since I last worked this tree. Time for a makeover. Wiring, cleanup the live veins, cleanup the deadwood. Working with Daisaku for the day. The guy is brilliant. What a great resource.

 

[markyscott]

Long long day of work.

 

[MichaelS]

I just noticed this thread. Forgive Scott me but I must say I'm disappointed. Too me it has been tamed and civilized into another Japanese garden tree. There is a massive problem (as I see it) developing when we entrust these wild trees into the hands of modern Japanese-trained professionals who are completely out of original ideas. I think this tree should have been sat on for another few years and properly studied for the possibilities. As an example, were is the logic in bringing down the branches when the history of the tree (the old jins) are growing up? In my opinion, this reduces the authenticity of the final image. I hope I'm not too out of line in saying this Scott but that is the first thing I thought when I saw the last pic. Either way, it will of course be a high quality tree in anyone's eyes.

 

[AZbonsai]

I go with A. B and D too right and left side dominant. Side C showcases the dead wood but hides the living in my very newbie opinion.

 

[chicago1980]

Here is a western juniper yamadori of mine. It was collected about 4 years ago and showed very strong growth this spring. I started work on the tree early this summer by removing the old bark and deadwood cleanup. I think enough of the old bark has been removed so that the location of the live veins are apparent. I'll repot, removing more of the field soil in January. My teacher and I took these pictures during the work while we were deciding on the front. There were a number of possibilities that we discussed and we took pictures from some of the angles that we liked the best - the options are written on the box. I ask you - which front do you like and why?

View attachment 40221View attachment 40219View attachment 40218View attachment 40220

Scott

Did you collect this tree?! Awesome tree, what made you choose the current front?