M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I like the trees.
…And We Thought It Was All About The Trees
- Thread starter Vin
- Start date
It's not that it's just as - as I said - that in these installations you could replace the trees by a stuff teddy bear and they still all work (really, try to picture it and you'll see that it's work, essentially the last one with a beheaded Teddy his head lying on the ground at his left side).
You do that (put a Teddy bear), show these displays in an Art gallery and called the exhibit 'Bonsaifying Teddy' and it will be a great show. Nuts like us will see the 'making a bonsai action' behind, random viewers will see whatever they want to see and that's quite fine.
So in this installations the tree is in fact secondary, that's why it's not really bonsai anymore because in bonsai normally if you replace the tree by a Teddy bear that doesn't work at all (or that works but in this case it's conceptual art and it becomes something like 'what if trees were stuffed?' or 'the pollution may drives us to plant stuffed bears in place of the trees' or something like that.
You could actually show your traditionally displayed teddy bears in a bonsai show, you'll have a riot and that really fine because this too is art.
Also: even if the display is traditional that doesn't mean that the art is dead btw. It's just means that the tree being the art the art evolves with the way we work on the tree, or invent a new style (good luck with this one as all styles could already be combine, it will be like trying to invent a new opening in a chess game).
Last point: bonsai has no meaning, it's just a freaking tree! A tree doesn't mean anything, it's just beautiful.
All these installations have a meaning or try to say something, so once again another form of art.
But that doesn't mean that it's not nice and that people can't love it
Last edited:
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I think you're being a bit overly sensitive and a bit of a reverse bonsai snob.
Just because it's not really bonsai, doesn't mean it's not art. It's not that this isn't ALLOWED to be bonsai. It's NOT really in the same wabi-sabi, bonsai-no-kokoro spirit as the traditional form. It's more modernistic and industrial, where traditional bonsai is more archaic and natural.
Taste is hard to pin down. While some think its wonderful, I think it's a bit strained and crass, but that's me. Art is subject to all manner of critique. Being upset because someone doesn't see the same thing as you is futile.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
It's not that it's just as - as I said - that in these installations you could replace the trees by a stuff teddy bear and they still all work (really, try to picture it and you'll see that it's work, essentially the last one with a beheaded Teddy his head lying on the ground at his left side).
You do that (put a Teddy bear), show these displays in an Art gallery and called the exhibit 'Bonsaifying Teddy' and it will be a great show. Nuts like us will see the 'making a bonsai action' behind, random viewers will see whatever they want to see and that's quite fine.
So in this installations the tree is in fact secondary, that's why it's not really bonsai anymore because in bonsai normally if you replace the tree by a Teddy bear that doesn't work at all (or that works but in this case it's conceptual art and it becomes something like 'what if trees were stuffed?' or 'the pollution may drives us to plant stuffed bears in place of the trees' or something like that.
You could actually show your traditionally displayed teddy bears in a bonsai show, you'll have a riot and that really fine because this too is art.
Also: even if the display is traditional that doesn't mean that the art is dead btw. It's just means that the tree being the art the art evolves with the way we work on the tree, or invent a new style (good luck with this one as all styles could already be combine, it will be like trying to invent a new opening in a chess game).
Last point: bonsai has no meaning, it's just a freaking tree! A tree doesn't mean anything, it's just beautiful.
All these installations have a meaning or try to say something, so once again another form of art.
But that doesn't mean that it's not nice and that people can't love it
So, replacing the tree in pic one with a teddy bear works?... Because kids generally play with teddy bears with a set of bonsai shears on their hands and a spool of copper wire in The other? I don't see any of that when I look at these installations. I think the "extra" just stands out because it is not what people are used to seeing, but that doesn't mean the tree is not the focus. The direction of the extra elements tends to mimic the movement of the tree, the added images and 3D pieces frame the trees, and it all still focuses on the tree.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
You are the one who a sounds upset, I was just posting my view on it and never once did Say I was "upset" or being sensitive. I disagreed a little with some people, but I never felt the need to tell them they were being sensitive or anything close to that... What promoted you to come after me in that way?
My point is that if Bonsai is an art form, then people who say this isn't Bonsai any more because it is a little different don't get it. Art is SUPPOSED to be different, and mediums- be it painting, sculpture or BONSAI evolve over time. Who is to say this is not the future of Bonsai? These added elements are becoming increasingly common in Bonsai shows across the world. They showed pics of one recently in Taiwan I think it was where the paired the trees with 3D sculptures and printed them in a more modern style.., I saw pics of a show a couple years ago in Cali where they were simply pairing clay pots and vases with trees in what was an unconventional presentation, though much less "over the top" than this- and I do not recall anyone sayingthose installations were "not Bonsai".
None of us get to say what is or is not Bonsai. Like them or not- that is your decisions, but this certainly IS Bonsai and may well be the future of it. Personally, I am not really excited by these installations, but I can see the value of his attempts at doing something different.
michaelj
Chumono
Well said. When people look at these new and different pieces of work and dismiss them as "not even bonsai", they remind me of the old curmudgeons in the 1950s who listened to rock music on the radio and grumbled that it "wasn't even music, just noise." These sort of different displays attract people's interest. And attracting people's interest, particularly young people's interest, is important if we want this hobby to do anything other than wither and die.
Sorry but it works.
Picture the wiring strangulating a Teddy bear with his tongue turning blue.
Nobody say that in art you have to represent how kids - for example - actually play. I never see any kid swimming in a pool trying to swallow a $1 bill on a hook like in the Nirvana album photo for example.
Also the fact that you see the motion and so on comes from the fact that you actually do bonsai, a random viewer won't see that but it's not a problem.
Anyway my point was: in these displays the trees are secondary. If Teddy bears are too far away for you not problem, just replace these (amazing btw) trees by a standard Home depot 1 gal tree and you'll see it works too.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
EXACTLY
From what I have read of Bonsai in Japan, it basically IS dying off because very few young people are getting involved. Thought still a big deal compared to the US in many ways, it seems mostly old men are practicing it now and their refusal to allow anything other than the EXACT SAME THING into the hobby and the shows is alienating to most young people I am sure. It doesn't have to be THIS installation the tickles your fancy... But I think the value of getting other mediums involved in this art form could be huge. Creating a wider appeal and a larger segment of the arts community that can get involved is just going to help bolster Bonsai as a growing "hobby"/ art form in this country which will lead to more people practicing, better trees, better shows, more materials available for purchase... An exponential effect that could help most of us. I know there are plenty who say they don't care if it grows.. Well, what if every Bonsai nursery just shut down in the US due to lack of sales/ interest? Would you care then? It is not a self-sustaining past time by any means...
Sorry but that's plain BS.
Saying: it's not bonsai doesn't mean 'it's not art.
Penjing aren't bonsai - even if bonsai are required in the making of penjing - that doesn't mean it's not art and beautiful.
do you really think that the tonnes of years of work on the trees required in these displays + the tonnes of everything else that are put around the trees will help attract more young people to let down their smartphone and start growing trees?...
michaelj
Chumono
Absolutely. You know why? Because it's fun. If you ever have the chance to go to a show where they permit something a little different, just stand back and watch the interest. In particular, watch who is interested.
Ok, why not, but anyway I'm pretty sure that bonsai has always been an old fellow art.
The amount of time, patience, money, space, knowledge and so on require and I'm sure that except few young fellows (and the young fellows that were born in a family that traditionally does bonsai) all the other ones are old guys.
That doesn't mean that young fellows won't be interested (there are some in this very forum). I have always been interested, but I just started last year when I finally had my own place and yard and so on before I would just have buy a bonsai and try to keep it alive... (which btw means that the art isn't dying, it's just that the new fellows are already old when they become young fellows
)
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Art?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Youth is wasted on the young.
The "fresh approach" is nice, but it rarely is. It's mostly gimmicks, or loud ham-handed crap that tries to pass itself off as bonsai or art...The exhibit above isn't one of those approaches, but it's not really bonsai. Now there are sensitive souls who are immediately hurt when someone says that, because they aren't thinking critically. I found over the years that people who demand that their idea of bonsai be taken "seriously" are more about being accepted as part of the very thing they're so critical of.
What possible difference does it make if a thoughtful, WELL-CRAFTED, tree is a "bonsai" or not? Also, the aim of bonsai is and will remain a naturalistic reflection on nature, not a loud interpretation of the modern world. Isn't that what drew you to it in the first place, or did you think "hey, I could stick a tree balanced on a metal and glass tray on a plastic tray" and it will say something about something...
Bet it was the quiet space for the mind that drew you to it...
The "fresh approach" is nice, but it rarely is. It's mostly gimmicks, or loud ham-handed crap that tries to pass itself off as bonsai or art...The exhibit above isn't one of those approaches, but it's not really bonsai. Now there are sensitive souls who are immediately hurt when someone says that, because they aren't thinking critically. I found over the years that people who demand that their idea of bonsai be taken "seriously" are more about being accepted as part of the very thing they're so critical of.
What possible difference does it make if a thoughtful, WELL-CRAFTED, tree is a "bonsai" or not? Also, the aim of bonsai is and will remain a naturalistic reflection on nature, not a loud interpretation of the modern world. Isn't that what drew you to it in the first place, or did you think "hey, I could stick a tree balanced on a metal and glass tray on a plastic tray" and it will say something about something...
Bet it was the quiet space for the mind that drew you to it...
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Don't you guys be hurting no Teddy bears! It's all fun and games until someone loses some stuffing.
michaelj
Chumono
Have you noticed that most of the time, when one of the old masters or old club members passes away, there is an estate sale? Ever stop to ponder the significance of that? Even the children and grandchildren of the great masters are uninterested in it and they just cash out. That's good for individuals looking to pick up a piece or two at the sale, but in the long run, it's bad for the hobby.
I have made contrary observations. I think that there are a number of people who think that bonsai is taken too seriously too much of the time. The ones who are doing more of the different stuff usually aren't demanding that they be taken seriously. They are usually just suggesting that people relax and let other people have fun with it.
Actually in my system yes
For me art is everything that makes a human being feels. From a thermodynamics point of view it makes sense as it gives energy to the Universe and ergo helps it to live lounger, but that will be a totally different discussion...
Anyway.
Your picture and the timing you chose to use it makes me smile/laugh ergo feel, hence it's art...
Btw: did you know that an artist once took a dump in a can and exposed that in a gallery in NY, it was entitled 'Artist's poop'
Art? Yes.
Everyone could do it?
Yes.
But anybody though about doing it... (and now it's too late, it has been done already)
Would I have buy it to put it on my chimney?
Definitively not
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
- Messages
- 13,111
- Reaction score
- 30,186
- USDA Zone
- 6a
Sorry, but that's just plain old crap....
You know it's exactly the same at the passing of a painter or a sculptor.
My son one day answered me while I was asking him how he plan to make a living:
- bah anyway all painters start to make money once they are dead so i'll sell your paintings and be rich!
Sounded to me like a good - albeit risky - idea
Last edited:
