lillarch
Sapling
Thank you!
30+ Year Old Pinus Silverstris “Beuvronensis” in 5 Gallon Pot
- Thread starter lillarch
- Start date
Firstflush
Chumono
If it is tremendously root/pot bound water can’t get to all the roots within the container.
When you have those conditions, you put the whole container in a tub of water. The water is wicked up through the drain holes into the root mass, otherwise know as bottom watering.
When you have those conditions, you put the whole container in a tub of water. The water is wicked up through the drain holes into the root mass, otherwise know as bottom watering.
lillarch
Sapling
September 2022 update:
Repotted into wider and deeper pot in spring. Did minimal work on the roots. 1-1-1 lava, pumice, pine bark. Would have chosen no pine bark if done over again.
Wired all branches. Looking back I should have not done this because many needles/branches died off. Should have waited until it took to new pot.
Branch that will not be part of final design was not wired and had much less/no needle die off.
Any experience with needle die off after wiring?
Repotted into wider and deeper pot in spring. Did minimal work on the roots. 1-1-1 lava, pumice, pine bark. Would have chosen no pine bark if done over again.
Wired all branches. Looking back I should have not done this because many needles/branches died off. Should have waited until it took to new pot.
Branch that will not be part of final design was not wired and had much less/no needle die off.
Any experience with needle die off after wiring?
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Well. well. Tree looks considerably better
. Was any of rootball/soil removed? Bending/manhandling branches when wiring done is stressful. Season done can be good or unfortunate. Lots of branches present gives many possibilities for development yet.
Correct you were that should have been more restrained with enthusiastic work. Personally would have pruned tree removing unneeded, dead parts to decrease unwieldiness of tree making repot of more compact lighter tree easier. THEN if tree responded as still healthy possibly doing repot into growing container one/two Springs later. IF tree responded well after this and only after this would have done major wiring next year. You hurried way too much after saying "little by little" did not follow own advice. Now must wait to see if you have tree die off or shaky success
.
. Was any of rootball/soil removed? Bending/manhandling branches when wiring done is stressful. Season done can be good or unfortunate. Lots of branches present gives many possibilities for development yet.Correct you were that should have been more restrained with enthusiastic work. Personally would have pruned tree removing unneeded, dead parts to decrease unwieldiness of tree making repot of more compact lighter tree easier. THEN if tree responded as still healthy possibly doing repot into growing container one/two Springs later. IF tree responded well after this and only after this would have done major wiring next year. You hurried way too much after saying "little by little" did not follow own advice. Now must wait to see if you have tree die off or shaky success
.
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penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
It is a great tree with much potential, but I sorta have to agree with Potawatomi on this.
sdavis
Mame
Nice graft!
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
The tree looks weak to me.
I think you need to let it recover and feed it more.
I think you need to let it recover and feed it more.
lillarch
Sapling
I tried to just loosen up the roots on the sides and bottom and some soil came off with that.Well. well. Tree looks considerably better
Correct you were that should have been more restrained with enthusiastic work. Personally would have pruned tree removing unneeded, dead parts to decrease unwieldiness of tree making repot of more compact lighter tree easier. THEN if tree responded as still healthy possibly doing repot into growing container one/two Springs later. IF tree responded well after this and only after this would have done major wiring next year. You hurried way too much after saying "little by little" did not follow own advice. Now must wait to see if you have tree die off or shaky success
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Only can cross fingers now and do best possible aftercare
lillarch
Sapling
What would you recommend for this scenario?Only can cross fingers now and do best possible aftercare
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Your area no special Winter protection needed. Sun, careful watering(when needed), Spring time fertilize regularly, do nothing else until strong ROBUST growth and health manifest. Keep sacrifice branch as may be needing for future use if losing part/most of tree
. Patience. Patience grasshopper.
. Patience. Patience grasshopper.
Diggumsmack2
Yamadori
Like Paradox said: let it recover and feed it.
Do no more work or very minimal, let it recover and build vigor for your next op. Tree needs time. After not being manhandled for 30+ years, doing anything will most likely be a shock for the tree.
Please keep us updated!
lillarch
Sapling
Uhoh. Sprayed with copper fungicide. Anything else I can do? Most branches seem to be affected.
Personally I would take off all the damned wire right now and hope it survives. Always remember...one insult per year. Re-potting is 1, wiring is 2. If you expect to be successful this you will need to join a club and or get a mentor to help you. If you don't, you're going to have serious problems like what you have now.
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Seems manhandling tree removing wire is added insult is it not
. Best to spray for scales and leave alone.
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
I agree. Moving the branches around to remove the wires at this point will probably do more harm than good. They aren't hurting anything at this point.Seems manhandling tree removing wire is added insult is it not
Srt8madness
Omono
Once the wire is on and bends are made, damage to branch is done, removing wire wouldn't undo.
Those scale might be the finishing touch for a weak tree
Those scale might be the finishing touch for a weak tree
MaciekA
Shohin
I've recovered pines from this "state" successfully and you can too, if you are careful.
That "state" is summarized as "foliage can draw water amount X, but soil holds 50X water, and I've started work on the tree before addressing the 50X part. Oops". In this case though, the capacity for water retention was increased. FWIW now, never slip pot a pine which is already in a Neptune-sized amount of soil into a Jupiter-sized amount of soil while also falling for the "don't worry I didn't mess with the roots" myth.
You actually do want to mess with the roots because the first goal when onboarding a nursery pine is to transition it (gradually, possibly a half at a time) into a media which is coarse, durable, porous, pea-sized, non-decaying, well-draining, and of a globally homogenous characteristic. The entire root system, interior and exterior, should as quickly as possible and before major reductions/work get into a mass of soil which is of 1 consistent characteristic, doesn't decay, doesn't hold a lot of water (important for pines), and is not much larger than the bounding volume of the root system. Note that by "homogenous" I mean one strategy across the entire mass rather than 1:1:1 in some places, nursery soil in other places, native soil in other places, etc. 1:1:1 or 1:1 or 1:2 etc are still homogenous, but if your fresh clean volcanic media is surrounding a toaster oven sized blob of dense/decaying/water-retentive elder media, that is a recipe for the situation seen in this thread.
Going forward:
- Avoid spraying anything from now on as you want to allow foliage to remain as productive as possible and virtually anything you apply has the effect of inhibiting that. Pests and pathogens are a product of the potting/horticulture and too much moisture retention as opposed to any other factor. Any chemical or oil that you apply to this tree that inhibits photosynthesis in any way just draws you into the vicious cycle of weakening, and invites more pests to attack weak foliage / roots / limbs.
- Don't be tempted to fertilize hard just because someone says to. You can further inhibit the transport of water out of the soil and through the tree by adding fertilizer and building up salts. Take it easy with fertilizer, it's not required and with the kinds of summers we've been getting in the PNW lately, sun and heat are a far bigger help in recovery than osmocote or miracle gro. Even if it's super duper tempting, err on the cautious side. Take it from someone who made all the mistakes with big-pot nursery pines but saw a major improvement once my practices were changed.
- Water dramatically less often -- if you're in the PNW it wouldn't surprise me if you still had moisture in the very center of the soil mass in mid-March even if you stopped watering today (early Oct). There's a very good chance that moisture takes weeks to cycle out of this pot. Job #1, by far, is to help the entire soil mass go through dry/moist cycles as opposed to staying constantly wet. This is the #1 issue for a weak pine. The faster the moist/dry/moist/dry cycle is, in the presence of ample sun, the faster recovery happens.
- Keep the tree in the sunniest spot in your garden, and if you have two locations with identical sun exposure, choose the one with more air flow. Don't shelter from the sun.
- You can hasten the cycling of moisture out of a pot with some pot aeration. You can also hasten cycling of moisture by leaving the pot tipped at an angle. If you do one thing on this list, these two actions alone make a pretty big difference in reducing water retention time, which recall is job #1
- Don't unwire. It's just gonna beat up the cambium which interferes with flow of sap which interferes with cycling moisture via photosynthesis, and will interfere with root growth this fall. The wire is already on the tree and is motionless. There's nothing more to be done and it has no new effect on the tree. Any damage that was done from wiring happened on wiring day. Any further damage happens on unwiring day.
- Wait for major progress in foliage growth before making big moves. It will be a slow frustrating process to wait for this tree to recover.
In the future, the process for onboarding a nursery pine that came in a BIG pot with either elderly soil, native soil, nursery soil, or anything other than a pure volcanic, insta-draining mix, should go something like this:
That "state" is summarized as "foliage can draw water amount X, but soil holds 50X water, and I've started work on the tree before addressing the 50X part. Oops". In this case though, the capacity for water retention was increased. FWIW now, never slip pot a pine which is already in a Neptune-sized amount of soil into a Jupiter-sized amount of soil while also falling for the "don't worry I didn't mess with the roots" myth.
You actually do want to mess with the roots because the first goal when onboarding a nursery pine is to transition it (gradually, possibly a half at a time) into a media which is coarse, durable, porous, pea-sized, non-decaying, well-draining, and of a globally homogenous characteristic. The entire root system, interior and exterior, should as quickly as possible and before major reductions/work get into a mass of soil which is of 1 consistent characteristic, doesn't decay, doesn't hold a lot of water (important for pines), and is not much larger than the bounding volume of the root system. Note that by "homogenous" I mean one strategy across the entire mass rather than 1:1:1 in some places, nursery soil in other places, native soil in other places, etc. 1:1:1 or 1:1 or 1:2 etc are still homogenous, but if your fresh clean volcanic media is surrounding a toaster oven sized blob of dense/decaying/water-retentive elder media, that is a recipe for the situation seen in this thread.
Going forward:
- Avoid spraying anything from now on as you want to allow foliage to remain as productive as possible and virtually anything you apply has the effect of inhibiting that. Pests and pathogens are a product of the potting/horticulture and too much moisture retention as opposed to any other factor. Any chemical or oil that you apply to this tree that inhibits photosynthesis in any way just draws you into the vicious cycle of weakening, and invites more pests to attack weak foliage / roots / limbs.
- Don't be tempted to fertilize hard just because someone says to. You can further inhibit the transport of water out of the soil and through the tree by adding fertilizer and building up salts. Take it easy with fertilizer, it's not required and with the kinds of summers we've been getting in the PNW lately, sun and heat are a far bigger help in recovery than osmocote or miracle gro. Even if it's super duper tempting, err on the cautious side. Take it from someone who made all the mistakes with big-pot nursery pines but saw a major improvement once my practices were changed.
- Water dramatically less often -- if you're in the PNW it wouldn't surprise me if you still had moisture in the very center of the soil mass in mid-March even if you stopped watering today (early Oct). There's a very good chance that moisture takes weeks to cycle out of this pot. Job #1, by far, is to help the entire soil mass go through dry/moist cycles as opposed to staying constantly wet. This is the #1 issue for a weak pine. The faster the moist/dry/moist/dry cycle is, in the presence of ample sun, the faster recovery happens.
- Keep the tree in the sunniest spot in your garden, and if you have two locations with identical sun exposure, choose the one with more air flow. Don't shelter from the sun.
- You can hasten the cycling of moisture out of a pot with some pot aeration. You can also hasten cycling of moisture by leaving the pot tipped at an angle. If you do one thing on this list, these two actions alone make a pretty big difference in reducing water retention time, which recall is job #1
- Don't unwire. It's just gonna beat up the cambium which interferes with flow of sap which interferes with cycling moisture via photosynthesis, and will interfere with root growth this fall. The wire is already on the tree and is motionless. There's nothing more to be done and it has no new effect on the tree. Any damage that was done from wiring happened on wiring day. Any further damage happens on unwiring day.
- Wait for major progress in foliage growth before making big moves. It will be a slow frustrating process to wait for this tree to recover.
In the future, the process for onboarding a nursery pine that came in a BIG pot with either elderly soil, native soil, nursery soil, or anything other than a pure volcanic, insta-draining mix, should go something like this:
- Willingly suffer the ~2 seasons that it takes to transition that pine out of that soil through half bare rootings, or via something like Tom Fincell's top-down repot method, or via a Ryan Neil style "work the roots hard externally but average the soil characteristics between interior/exterior" strategy. If the sound of 2 or 3 years of transition before fun begins sucks, then now you know why professionally grown pre-bonsai cost money, or why yamadori have a 2+ year recovery cycle, or why some of us like growing from seed in pure volcanic media with an early focus on roots, or why some choose to stick to broadleaf deciduous that can be barerooted quickly and recover quickly. Coniferous nursery stock is a shortcut in one way, but it adds time in another way. Tradeoffs everywhere.
- Wait to work on the pine until that transition is done and the pine has signalled recovery with bushy/running shoots. Some get away with rushing past this, but with a slow pine, and IME, usually not. And if soil retains lots of water and total leaf surface area is small, it eventually bites the grower in the butt.
- Always after that, as you work your way towards a bonsai pot, keep in mind that the amount of foliage on a pine must never be vastly overshadowed in water capacity in the soil. True for all bonsai but especially pine. Once you master this aspect of pine, you become one of the pine growers who seem to just make it look effortless. Pathogens and pests become much less of an issue and you mostly adopt a "pines are bulletproof" mentality after this.
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There is a lot of "don't remove the wire"..."the damage was done when it was put on". I understand that thinking but believe with the amount of wire that is on this tree, the way it is applied, and the timing, that the tree would be better with it gone. I can imagine how many pressure points etc that would be relieved with no wire on them. Also, IMO, with care, and good wire cutters, all wire could be removed from the tree, never touching a branch, and not negatively affecting any branching in the process. If you think that the wire on there now is not still affecting the tree negatively, well I just disagree with you. I know you're going to yell at me, but no problem.
