30+ Year Old Pinus Silverstris “Beuvronensis” in 5 Gallon Pot

[MaciekA]

No yelling or guff from me, we've got our respective ideas and theories, OP's got some choices to make

I think regardless of "wire or not unwire", the bigger issue is transport of water and well-functionign photosynthesis -- @August44 our ideas around wire are a distant second to this overshadowing issue. I agree that if OP removes the wire it probably won't be catastrophic, and I respect your analysis even if I disagree with it (I'd rather hear your viewpoint in case I learn something rather than make a fuss and never learn anything).

 

[August44]

No yelling or guff from me, we've got our respective ideas and theories, OP's got some choices to make

I think regardless of "wire or not unwire", the bigger issue is transport of water and well-functionign photosynthesis -- @August44 our ideas around wire are a distant second to this overshadowing issue. I agree that if OP removes the wire it probably won't be catastrophic, and I respect your analysis even if I disagree with it (I'd rather hear your viewpoint in case I learn something rather than make a fuss and never learn anything).

It is just my belief that the wire is still now affecting the tree in several different ways, and it would be best if it was gone. I also don't agree with feeding/fertilizing a struggling tree as some suggest. This tree is headed for the garbage can, which is sad.

Good answer MaciekA by the way

 

[MaciekA]

Don't lose hope. As Gary Wood said to a mentor of mine, if it's green, it's alive, and can make roots. It's green, it's alive, and already has roots. There is a path. But other trees will have to be acquired to ensure itchy hands don't knock it off that path

 

[Scorpius]

Thing with pines though is once you push them past a certain point there's no recovering them.

 

[Paradox]

@August44
We will just have to agree to disagree
I don't believe you can avoid manipulating the branches again when removing that wire.

I agree with you on fertilizing a sick tree though. I wouldn't do it either

 

[August44]

@August44
We will just have to agree to disagree
I don't believe you can avoid manipulating the branches again when removing that wire.

I agree with you on fertilizing a sick tree though. I wouldn't do it either

Trust me, I could do it for the right money

 

[clem]

@August44
We will just have to agree to disagree
I don't believe you can avoid manipulating the branches again when removing that wire.

I agree with @August44

The tree is weak, it wasn't a good idea to wire a weak tree + the wiring is not correctly done on this pine (coils too close together and perpendicular to the branches -> sapp flow constrained).

If the tree is fixed correctly in the pot, the roots won't move when removing the wires. IMO it isn't a problem to manipulate the branches as long as the root ball doesn't move. As soon as the wires are removed, the branches will straighten up, the sapp flow will be better, the tree will feel better, less constrained.

A very very very experienced and knowledgeable scotts pine collector in France removed the wires of his old pine a few days after a demo in a Bonsai show because he noticed that his pine was affected a few days after the show.

"errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum"

Letting the wires will not kill the tree, but i think removing the wires won't affect the tree (if the root ball is well fixed) and the tree will feel better without the wires.
It is important also to remove the parasites and control the watering (to let the soil dry out on the surface before watering again). The famous "water/oxygen balance" of Ryan Neil

 

[Potawatomi13]

the wiring is not correctly done on this pine (coils too close together and perpendicular to the branches -> sapp flow constrained

Look again. Most of wiring not bad at all just dazzling in multitude. Check Ryans wiring for "tightness" on pines, etc.

 

[clem]

i see some wiring like this (bad) ->


instead of this (good) ->


anyway, good or not wiring, a weak pine shouldn't be wired, because the sapp flow will be constrained and the tree will get weaker :/ the tree is weak and invaded by parasites now.
so, i would remove the wires ^^

 

[August44]

To me it's very simple. Wiring the tree to begin with, in the condition it was in was wrong. The wiring job itself may look halfway decent but I would guarantee you that it is negatively affecting the tree the way it was put on. That is evident with how the tree reacted since the wiring. Some say the damage has been done, leave it along. The damage started when the wire was installed, and its presence is still creating multiple problems IMO. It just doesn't stop once it's on. Let's do this...take some good-sized wire and wrap it around two of you fingers fairly tight. Yes, I know it won't feel good and it will slow the blood down and your fingers will start turning purple and probably swell up but leave it on cause the damage was done when you put it on. You'll get used to it pretty soon and it won't get any worse. My ass, take the wire off and tell me what happens.

The wiring can all be removed with no damage to the branches, trunk, or roots and the tree will feel better and have one less health problem to deal with. The tree needs the help! Why are we arguing about this?

 

[Srt8madness]

Actually it would be more akin to breaking your finger and then setting the break with a splint. Difference here, the tree doesn't need its cambium to be "set" straight. But bending the broken fingers around to take off the splint wouldn't be too great either.

 

[Paradox]

@clem
You and I will have to agree to disagree as well.
My opinion isn't changed
The wire has been applied and the branches bent. The damage has already been done. Nothing but time will fix that.

An experienced and very patient person could probably remove some or a lot of the wire very carefully. I could probably get much of it off as long as my patience held. But it would also be very easy to just cause more damage and make things worse.

Of course an experienced and patient person wouldn't have the tree in the state it is in in the first place.

 

[Srt8madness]

Damn! Drop the mic

 

[clem]

@clem
You and I will have to agree to disagree as well.
My opinion isn't changed
The wire has been applied and the branches bent. The damage has already been done. Nothing but time will fix that.

An experienced and very patient person could probably remove some or a lot of the wire very carefully. I could probably get much of it off as long as my patience held. But it would also be very easy to just cause more damage and make things worse.

Of course an experienced and patient person wouldn't have the tree in the state it is in in the first place.

you describe the branches as if they had been broken, with a shred of life to keep them alive... If you remove the wires of this tree, the branches will quickly return to their original position, because of their elasticity. And the tree will feel better

 

[Potawatomi13]

you describe the branches as if they had been broken, with a shred of life to keep them alive... If you remove the wires of this tree, the branches will quickly return to their original position, because of their elasticity. And the tree will feel better

Failure to realize here when branches bent many fibers broken, cambium fibers included. Healing/growth what makes bends set after this. This is spoken by Ryan Niel in who knows how many live streams. Even IF wire removed damage IS already done/will not magically vanish in effect.

 

[clem]

Failure to realize here when branches bent many fibers broken, cambium fibers included. Healing/growth what makes bends set after this. This is spoken by Ryan Niel in who knows how many live streams. Even IF wire removed damage IS already done/will not magically vanish in effect.

Yes, there are micro-fractures.. The same Ryan explained in a video that if your wiring result isn't easthetically satisfying (the result is worse than before), you'd better remove it.. So.. It is possible to unwire too.

 

[clem]

what i like the most with Ryan is his logical mind because we can proceed with logic on our trees.
I dunno what Ryan would do on this tree. But let's proceed with logic.
What do you prefer :
1- a weak tree + micro-fractures on branches + sap flow constrained by the wires
2- a weak tree + micro-fractures on branches + unconstrained sap flow (no wiring on branches)

 

[bluecat]

The tree is still alive and the healthy unwired branch can help carry the tree along. I showed similar impatience with a straight, leggy pine by repotting, notch cutting the trunk and wiring a few main branches all one spring. It struggled along for two years regaining strength. But critically, I couldn't remove the wire as it would have fallen apart. I also left about half of the tree unwired to help maintain sap flow/growth and foliage-water balance.

For this tree, the big bends have been made and there has been significant cambian damage in some places. The younger the growth, the more supple and the less damage from wiring, but there is still merit in wire free growth when there is little damage.

Personally, I would leave the bigger bends in place as you're only going to redo them later down the line. Why make the tree suffer twice/three times. I would carefully remove some of the finer wiring where possible so it's free to grow where it wants, striking a balance between suboptimal access to light and ability to grow freely.

 

[lillarch]

Update:

 

[MaciekA]

Looking good, I think you will be over the hump by this time next year (or perhaps the spring after that), at which point you'll be able to at least contemplate (if not necessarily proceed with) root/soil/pot actions, since this is still not a ton of needle mass dealing with quite a huge volume of what looks to be mostly organic soil.

I think the goal this year should be to grow as much needle mass as possible and, in parallel to that, try to get the soil to dry out as fast as possible in a continuous cycle of watering, then observing significant drying again (dig down with your fingers to investigate), repeat. If this were my tree, I'd additionally perforate the pot to get more air flow into the root system. This is really all there is to do this year. I urge you to run away from any advice that calls for pruning, pinching or wiring anything. Save up sugar for the big soil change that looms large in the more distant future. Keep it in full sun, El Nino is on the way and it's at least possible the PNW will have a long warm growing season and a mild warmer winter next year, which could help this tree.