Affordable colanders - Smart Pot
- Thread starter Anthony
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Beng
Omono
I've used these before, if you can bury them in the soil or build a wire frame for each I think they're great. I actually have a wisteria in one. By themselves they're too flimsy, if you move your plants once or twice a month there are better options out there.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Beng
Omono
Not really, when the roots hit the fabric edges they divide. It's a similar system to what Chris uses at telperion farms. Eventually a tap root may escape the bag but the majority of the root system remains contained.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
No they don't. If you get one root to escape you have a full scale break out. In two years if it is not corrected that one root replaces the entire root system you have been trying to develop in the colander. You may still have roots in the colander but the shock of removing the new dominant root and it's ancillary root system will take two years to recover from.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
We had a discussion about this very issue not too long ago (here: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?12347-salad-drainer-as-training-pot) In response to that, I had posted some questions on IBC and also the Australian forum, where one of the main proponents of the technique (planting in colanders which are then planted in the ground) was active. If I recall correctly, they said they lift the trees and prune any escaped roots at least annually...and the claim is that this allows for somewhat faster growth/development of the top (because of the escaping roots) while also maintaining the compact root mass near the trunk.
I'm probably going to experiment with this technique as I have a few plants that are borderline hardy here which are not developing very quickly in pots.
Chris
I'm probably going to experiment with this technique as I have a few plants that are borderline hardy here which are not developing very quickly in pots.
Chris
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't know, I never got a good answer...just reporting what "they" said. I repeatedly asked what the root systems inside the colander looked like when treated this way, again...no real good answer.
Edit to add...I can imagine that there might be one benefit, that being that the root/soil mass inside the colander won't "fall apart" when lifted...which can happen with the technique you describe.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for your response. I'm just asking. My sniping isn't directed at you. It sounds to me that there is a 'sacred collander' religious sect forming. Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out.
The point of collanders is air pruning roots and possibly drainage - exactly the same principle as Vance's patent - which is defeated by burying the collander or Anderson flat or pond basket or the like. Burying them is just plain silly and unlike Brent Walston's 'great escape' accident/method.
To this point of simple root pruning, 'lifting' is not implied - just leave it in the ground - stick the shovel in the ground to cut the roots around the trunk and move on (optionally, remove the roots outside the cuts). Planting on a mound just makes it easier to slice the roots underneath.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
If a bunch of people in different locations around the world are telling me that they're having good results with this technique, I'm going to try to find out more about it and how/why it might be working. I won't dismiss it out of hand as "just plain silly". If you consider that being "so open-minded that your brain falls out", so be it.
I believe it may be possible to get accelerated growth and yet maintain the compact root system using this approach. How? Use the colander (air pot, whatever) initially above ground to establish a good, compact root system. Then plant the pot in the ground for a year, maybe two...long enough to allow some roots to escape and give a growth boost. Then lift and perhaps leave above ground to re-establish whatever part of the root mass may have been lost.
Does this method produce more growth in a given time? I don't know. A number of people have claimed it does. It may work better for certain species or in certain areas. I will probably do some limited testing with some problem plants I have...we'll see what happens.
Chris
Beng
Omono
Sorry I have to disagree with you on this one thing. I was at Telperion farms last fall and dug up a number of trees with him. In about half the cases of the 6 or 7 we dug a tap root had escaped the bags on the bottom, he just chopped it off in all cases. The root system and nebari within the bags was fabulous and I was able to bare root all of the trees we dug the following spring. Perhaps his bags are a different material but they look the same? He posts on here from time to time maybe he'll see this thread and respond. I haven't bought healthier field grown trees from anyone. He does not grow straight in the ground all his trees are in root control bags in the ground.
About halfway down this page you can see a picture of a satsuki in a root control bag. http://www.telfarms.com/trees/about
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Beng
Omono
I don't know if this is the same bag telperion uses but here's a page that sells bags that look similar to his.
http://www.treebag.com/smart_pot_in_ground.html
Could be the bags posted in the first post are much thicker then what Telperion uses and roots can't escape from them but they're both fabric bags.
Sounds like the makers of smart pots used to be Root Control Inc http://www.smartpots.com/about-us
http://www.treebag.com/smart_pot_in_ground.html
How Does The Root Control Bag System Work?
Trees and shrubs are planted into the Root Control Bag. As the roots of the plant grow, they hit the fuzzy inside fabric of the bag. Importantly, roots do not circle on the fabric as they do against plastic. Instead the root is caught by the fuzzy inner surface of the material. The root penetrates the fabric. The tough fabric, however, prevents the root from expanding. The root is choked or girdled by the fabric. The choking causes the root to lose its apical dominance and lateral branching or pruning occurs inside the bag.
Trees and shrubs are planted into the Root Control Bag. As the roots of the plant grow, they hit the fuzzy inside fabric of the bag. Importantly, roots do not circle on the fabric as they do against plastic. Instead the root is caught by the fuzzy inner surface of the material. The root penetrates the fabric. The tough fabric, however, prevents the root from expanding. The root is choked or girdled by the fabric. The choking causes the root to lose its apical dominance and lateral branching or pruning occurs inside the bag.
Could be the bags posted in the first post are much thicker then what Telperion uses and roots can't escape from them but they're both fabric bags.
Sounds like the makers of smart pots used to be Root Control Inc http://www.smartpots.com/about-us
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Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
What you get with the colander, is the ability to keep the core. The core being what the tree was grown in [ as in bonsai soil ].
Results this year shown by lifting a Hackberry, 2 years in a colander growing in the trough, was exactly what Vance said. Large roots forming and going into the earth. What we did was leave the hackberry in the colander, cutting back the roots, so the core could reform.
Will know more when repotting [ after the fridge ] takes place on 1st of April.
Additionally, we are testing if a colander can be placed into a container [ another colander or similar situation - air-pot . smart pot ] filled with only 100% compost.
The experimental idea is that so much compost is as rich as so many cubic feet in the ground.
Will report back on the results.
Just in case I lost you. What if you can air grow with the same results as ground growing, but using less space and less fertiliser.
Good Day
Anthony
Results this year shown by lifting a Hackberry, 2 years in a colander growing in the trough, was exactly what Vance said. Large roots forming and going into the earth. What we did was leave the hackberry in the colander, cutting back the roots, so the core could reform.
Will know more when repotting [ after the fridge ] takes place on 1st of April.
Additionally, we are testing if a colander can be placed into a container [ another colander or similar situation - air-pot . smart pot ] filled with only 100% compost.
The experimental idea is that so much compost is as rich as so many cubic feet in the ground.
Will report back on the results.
Just in case I lost you. What if you can air grow with the same results as ground growing, but using less space and less fertiliser.
Good Day
Anthony
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You will not get a good answer because the only true answer is that people are afraid to use them above ground thinking the roots will dry out too quickly. Trust me on this one I developed the technology and was awarded a patent for the Bonsai Training Planter in the late 80's earkt 90's. The use of colanders and pond baskets came after the issuance of my patent. I stopped marketing them a few years ago because the use of these cheaper devices has made the cost I have to charge for the planters to high and the cost of material had gotten out of hand. Never the less; the concept is to make use of air pruning which only happens if the device is used above ground. As far as the kind of growth you get from this method may not be as fast as in the ground but you can develop trunks with it contrary to what some may say.
Japanese Maple developed in the planter from a cut down nursery tree in 1994
The three major sizes I used to sell them in; one, three and five gallon equivalents.
Tona
Shohin
I have used "Anderson Flats" with success. They are fairly inexpensive.
Tona
http://www.stuewe.com/products/anderson.php
Tona
http://www.stuewe.com/products/anderson.php
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Tona,
what also discovered is that the trees we grow down here prefer shallow large containers. So we went to uv stabilised saucers, the one used for large pots. Most are only 4" deep and almost 2' in diameter, and we use compost, so it seems to be mimicing nature.
Additionally, I was also advised to grow J.B.P in nothing deeper than 6", which works well for us. Especially since, for our climate which is say 6 mths. desert and 6 mths rain, humidity has a wide range of 40 ish to 80 ish %, the container should be porous. Earthenware clay or cement.
We continue to experiment and test.
Good Day
Anthony
what also discovered is that the trees we grow down here prefer shallow large containers. So we went to uv stabilised saucers, the one used for large pots. Most are only 4" deep and almost 2' in diameter, and we use compost, so it seems to be mimicing nature.
Additionally, I was also advised to grow J.B.P in nothing deeper than 6", which works well for us. Especially since, for our climate which is say 6 mths. desert and 6 mths rain, humidity has a wide range of 40 ish to 80 ish %, the container should be porous. Earthenware clay or cement.
We continue to experiment and test.
Good Day
Anthony
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You probably have not seen the kind of root system that a properly grown tree in a screen sided container can produce.
As to cutting roots escaping from bags: Any time you cut roots you slow down the progress of the tree, that's just the nature of the beast. In a screen sided container you do not have this problem. You do not need to cut roots because the system does not provide you with that problem.
Forgive me for forgetting one critical element. It is a common comment made to people who ask how to develop trees quickly; plant the tree in the ground. This is true, correct, and a good idea except for one major draw back: Not everyone has a patch of dirt to plant that tree in. That is the major advantage of the screen sided planter box. All you need is shelf space. One added advantage that you don't have with planting in the ground is the ability to rotate the tree and take advantage of light exposure 360*.
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cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Many years ago Lenz would plant trees potted in nursery containers and let roots escape out of the drain holes to beef up trees. It worked if it did not go on for more than a few years otherwise it would get too pot bound. He would always be sure he had a fine divided root system first then he planted the whole pot in his garden. One thing I learned was the pot must be watered frequently( like it was still on the bench) not just forgotten, otherwise it just turns into a pot of ropey dry roots with no root hairs.
I researched grow bags at one time and noted some grow bags are lined with a copper substance that is poison to roots. I think Root bags get buried in nurseries for practical reasons; moisture and stability. They contain the fine roots though(just like a colander would), even if the air pruning affect is not in play. I understand people are using them for collected trees with good success--there are a lot of bags on the market but would think just using a swat of landscape fabric would work fine.
I researched grow bags at one time and noted some grow bags are lined with a copper substance that is poison to roots. I think Root bags get buried in nurseries for practical reasons; moisture and stability. They contain the fine roots though(just like a colander would), even if the air pruning affect is not in play. I understand people are using them for collected trees with good success--there are a lot of bags on the market but would think just using a swat of landscape fabric would work fine.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I think that copper substance is cupric carbonate (CuCO[sub]3[/sub]). My understanding is that one only needs to add 100 to 200g/liter of powder to paint and then paint it on the inside of a pot (or the paintable surface of anything one wants to be a root barrier). There may be premixed paint for this purpose on the market.
ADD: Or is could be copper oxychloride or copper hydroxide. All have been used for this purpose.
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