Are you a Parrot?

[Vance Wood]

I had a guy I was working with a few years ago. He had some cut up nursery material and was growing some of his own not exactly knowing just what to do. As we worked and I tried to explain why the octopus juniper he was trying to develop was not exactly coming along quite as good as he wanted. We talked about it and I explained on paper what to look for in material and where and how he should pursue it. He told me I had great trees cause I started with great material. He said what could I tell him that would improve his collection. I told him to get a better job!

Is that the kind of encouragement your looking for? You know what it takes and the difference is always money.

I disagree; The difference can be, and often is money but, I have seen it here on Bnut, and in many local clubs and in conventions; money does not always trump talent and determination. I have seen club fisted lazy use of very expensive material by self-righteous, self-indulgent, people who believe all that is necessary to do bonsai is a lot of money turn this stuff into very expensive compost. This is alright on its own it is kind of that way it is in Japan where making beautiful bonsai is not as important as having beautiful bonsai. In the end it seems to be an argument between those who actually perform the art and those who pay for the art.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Hey bnuttets, yeah all of you!
Sorce says you have to keep things of his out of your beathing apparatus. Or something like that, I don't know. I've read it somewhere.
I'm off to take a sand bath, eating clay and rustling my feathers!

 

[Ryceman3]

Nah nah...my shit is real! Lol!
Not like this liar! Lol!

Sorce

It’s a lyrebird in the vid, not a LIARbird ... but I get you. I’ve seen/heard one in the wild do the SLR camera shutter then break out into a medley of mobile phone ringtones... phenomenal mimic! So very cool.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Offering ones source..allows one to grasp where the tidbit came from. Something that you are taught to do in our educational system. If the source is not mentioned...the grade value is less. As would be if one reading the information given...if no source then the information has no weight to it. Parroting? No...it's called source referencing. If the source is sound...then the information is sound.

Maybe you didn't have to source information when you were in school Al...maybe that is why this seems to really be something that gets your goat. But to source ones information grounds the weight of what is given. At least that's how I see it.

 

[just.wing.it]

Its only parroting if the violator doesn't have a proper fundamental understanding of the topic.
Otherwise its just sharing knowledge and sources.

Giving someone information in an educational manner should only be done by someone who at least has a proper fundamental understanding of the information....preferably someone with true experience.... this reminds me of that video of the poor lady working on the blue star juniper, wiring the branches together in bundles...or the other watering video where he's washed all the soil out of the pot.

 

[Anthony]

Parroting --------- collecting of information - often from just folk talking,
taking scribe-like notes ---------- no thinking to lead to deeper understanding,
no experience to back up information.

If simply repeating from a source, you are required to give the source,
the respect due and name it.

The problem here, on Bnut, is still the idea that technique is more important
than the result.
Good Day
Anthony

*written as Just.Wing,It posted.

 

[GailC]

I have also noticed a fair amount of parroting on Bnut, I don't care for it either. To make it clear though, I feel there is a difference between people sharing info that is proven and relevant and a bunch of newbies all screaming, it fungus spray it! when its something totally different.

This is where experience come in. If you don't have it, you shouldn't be offering advice. If you don't know the difference between fungus, sunburn and bug damage (for example) you don't give advice based on "I saw a picture somewhere" or "so and so said"

I don't have enough experience with bonsai to give advice but I do have enough horticulture advice to give basic plant care but I do so very sparsely. I generally leave questions to be answered by those who are more experienced than I am.

 

[Smoke]

Maybe you didn't have to source information when you were in school Al...maybe that is why this seems to really be something that gets your goat. But to source ones information grounds the weight of what is given. At least that's how I see it.

Please read all the text I write . I'm talking about continually repeating what you source here rather than doing what you source and reporting THAT.

I read, and I source, and I paste and copy for my own reference. I work on my trees and I report how it works and when I'm successful. Not everything you source works, why do I need to have someone keep repeating the same old source and the same old outdated crap over and over.

 

[Vance Wood]

Smoke said this about a discussion on material: You know what it takes and the difference is always money. I know that this is the mantra that has always been preached around here for years, and argued about for almost as long. I don't disagree; starting with good, meaning expensive, material will yield a better bonsai quicker than starting with cheaper and not as good material. However even a Yamadori had it's day as a POS growing on the side of a Mountain for a couple of hundred years. The main difference is time and circumstances. That is of course the goal of bonsai: To impart those features, time and the forces of nature takes imagination and a degree of skill. Maybe money can get you something that will take less imagination but turning valuable material into crap does not.

 

[Smoke]

I disagree; The difference can be, and often is money but, I have seen it here on Bnut, and in many local clubs and in conventions; money does not always trump talent and determination. I have seen club fisted lazy use of very expensive material by self-righteous, self-indulgent, people who believe all that is necessary to do bonsai is a lot of money turn this stuff into very expensive compost. This is alright on its own it is kind of that way it is in Japan where making beautiful bonsai is not as important as having beautiful bonsai. In the end it seems to be an argument between those who actually perform the art and those who pay for the art.

Come on Vance, I'm giving the forum the benefit of doubt that everyone here is competent and if given the chance they could do better with more money to spend. I'm not talking about bonsai hacks, wannabe's and losers.

But if you wish to go down that road, then yea, there are those that given unlimited resources couldn't bonsai their way out of a wet paper bag. I just didn't see the need to go there....right?

 

[Cadillactaste]

Please read all the text I write . I'm talking about continually repeating what you source here rather than doing what you source and reporting THAT.

I read, and I source, and I paste and copy for my own reference. I work on my trees and I report how it works and when I'm successful. Not everything you source works, why do I need to have someone keep repeating the same old source and the same old outdated crap over and over.

I actually did read it all Al. I don't tend to give any direction on air layering. I've read books...but have yet to try it. I one day will need to with the one in ground I am training off a sucker. I see threads of unsuccessful attempts and I shrug...wondering where I will fall on that attempt.

Newbies are you addressing then? I was assuming you tire of hearing one's name who had apprenticeships in Japan. Their name tossed out with the knowledge they paid for...and share. You refer to them often when one refers to their techniques. Not sure why it bugs you.

But common horticultural topics...I don't have an issue with. Like hardening off. I don't live in your climate...so, I do wait for some species of trees to harden off. What works for some...I feel climate pays a lot to ones success. Not to rehash that old topic.

But...example...Adair shares things he's done with success...giving Boon credit since he learned from him. That bugs you...you have said it before. You hate hearing his references to his teacher. Yet...for a new member...it grounds the information as more sound. To me at least it does.

 

[Smoke]

Well, I won the battle with that toilet in the end anyways. Put up a hell of a fight.

Good, I hope you cleaned up the mess good. Your a stronger man than I. I would have been embarrassed to even post the picture of my herkel if it looked like that.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Wish you would report this outdated information Al...might make this thread appear in a different light to me. All I seen was specific names you repeatedly get frustrated over their names and knowledge shared here.

But I agree...with some not even grasping the topic they share...or read. But I for one...have learned from one's sharing video of Ryan Neil. What I like is when they point out the time stamp for that info. I hate watching movies...so I lose interest at times on even Bonsai information sadly.

 

[Anthony]

Don't say the technique is old fashioned.
Say this technique is more efficient.
Then state the positives.

And as experience has shown, the new will become
the old to be replaced with other new --- why ?

Because their techniques are- just - old fashioned ?

Memories are short, and everyone forgets how brilliant
x's tree was when shown.

Like I said before, science is needed - permanent visual records
- holograms ------
Now tell me who the bestest was in China / Japan in 1910
and why ?

We are working on them, art students and holograms for Bonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[wireme]

Good, I hope you cleaned up the mess good. Your a stronger man than I. I would have been embarrassed to even post the picture of my herkel if it looked like that.

Actually I’m grateful towards those who pass on what their teachers have taught them here. It can be a bit annoying when it’s presented as the word of god and even more annoying when the giver of advice gives the impression that they think you’re an idiot for doing something differently but it’s still information.

Back to my first post on this thread I’m just saying a carrot can be as good as a stick sometimes that’s all.

 

[Thomas J.]

Here you go Al, I'm not a parrot but I have one, meet Rosita the bi-lingual African Grey. She's often outside with me while I'm working on my bonsai, especially my seed grown 5yr old seedlings, here's a before and after from last November from two of them, all will be future shohin with quite a few years to go yet.

 

[coh]

Here you go Al, I'm not a parrot but I have one, meet Rosita the bi-lingual African Grey. She's often outside with me while I'm working on my bonsai, especially my seed grown 5yr old seedlings, here's a before and after from last November from two of them, all will be future shohin with quite a few years to go yet.
View attachment 197782

Beautiful bird! We also have an African grey parrot, though he is the smaller "timneh" variety.

Anyone who has spent any time with these birds knows that they do far more than just "parrot". They are very intelligent, creative, loving. While it is hard to
know exactly what they are thinking and how it compares to what humans think/experience, I feel pretty confident saying that they are definitely capable
of "original thought".

By the way, this thread is really stupid. Al, you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you've been posting lately.

 

[Paulpash]

To be honest Al, you are much quicker to call someone out than like or comment on a progression series. In the grafting debacle post where you questioned my experience I responded with loads of examples but you never said 'I was out of line..' Sometimes people have a shit load of experience but they don't post a lot. Creating an atmosphere where people can share, ask questions or show their work is important too. Sometimes they can surprise you.

I grow 95% of my stuff from scratch in beds. To me I'd as much want to chat to the brilliant @Brent from Evergreen Gardenworks than Ryan Neil & Co. You don't have to break the bank to get good stock trees as you implied - it's just a trade off - cash for time. I like these threads best, eg @Brian Van Fleet with his quince & the decision making needed to build a quality trunk.

 

[brewmeister83]

I grow 95% of my stuff from scratch in beds. To me I'd as much want to chat to the brilliant @Brent from Evergreen Gardenworks than Ryan Neil & Co. You don't have to break the bank to get good stock trees as you implied - it's just a trade off - cash for time. I like these threads best, eg @Brian Van Fleet with his quince & the decision making needed to build a quality trunk.

THIS!!!

I like to grow out a lot of my material too, developing trunks gives me more artistic control so I feel a tree is more "mine" but I can never find good info, like how to position buds on a growing trunk-line or main branch to get the bud-back you want 20 years from now when you trunk chop - but no, it's always ramification, and pinching, and deadwood finishing and pot placement in a tokonoma.

Pots! Ha! I'm about 5-10 years away from seeing any of my plants in a pot!

I come on this site and have to constantly listen to a bunch of old fuddy-duddies argue about "finishing" techniques on junipers and such - talk about parroting, it's this over and over on a yearly cycle...

"squawk, pinching means this" "squawk, no pinching means that"

"squawk, hardening off means this" "squawk, no hardening off means that"

"squawk, it's a horticultural term" "squawk, now you're arguing semantics"

"squawk, my teacher says to do this" "squawk, just because they're Japanese trained doesn't mean anything"

"squawk, well if you spent more money..." "squawk, it's a hobby I can do whatever I want"

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go brush up on my deadwood techniques, I've heard you're supposed to use jin pliers and twist/rip back along the grain.

At least, that's what they say... squawk!

 

[Paulpash]

THIS!!!

I like to grow out a lot of my material too, developing trunks gives me more artistic control so I feel a tree is more "mine" but I can never find good info, like how to position buds on a growing trunk-line or main branch to get the bud-back you want 20 years from now when you trunk chop - but no, it's always ramification, and pinching, and deadwood finishing and pot placement in a tokonoma.

Pots! Ha! I'm about 5-10 years away from seeing any of my plants in a pot!

I come on this site and have to constantly listen to a bunch of old fuddy-duddies argue about "finishing" techniques on junipers and such - talk about parroting, it's this over and over on a yearly cycle...

"squawk, pinching means this" "squawk, no pinching means that"

"squawk, hardening off means this" "squawk, no hardening off means that"

"squawk, it's a horticultural term" "squawk, now you're arguing semantics"

"squawk, my teacher says to do this" "squawk, just because they're Japanese trained doesn't mean anything"

"squawk, well if you spent more money..." "squawk, it's a hobby I can do whatever I want"

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go brush up on my deadwood techniques, I've heard you're supposed to use jin pliers and twist/rip back along the grain.

At least, that's what they say... squawk!

View attachment 197799

At the risk of being a parrot go to evergreengardenworks.com and read Brent's articles on how to build trunks - there are loads of other stuff on there too. Tbh I'd rather be a parrot repeating quality info that he gives than guessing & talking a load of crap. Oh how I wish this article was around when I put my first cutting in the ground 27 years ago - far less stuff would have been binned or ruined. I might even have considered changing my name to "Polly" by deed poll.