Azalea chop advice

Jphipps

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Hey guys. I recently found this large azalea at a nursery. I uncovered the soil and found an interesting nebari. Where do you think I should cut this one back to, and also when should I perform this kind of drastic pruning?I'm in the Pensacola area (8b/9a). It's actually popped a few blooms this week. Other azaleas in the ground in my yard are also blooming. Thank you for any advice! 20160206_143837.jpg 20160130_152811.jpg 20160206_143841.jpg 20160206_163641.jpg 20160206_163419.jpg 20160206_143837.jpg 20160206_143837.jpg
 

qwade

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Absolutley nice looking bones down low. I would probably cut all branches back to the nearest swirl or 2 and re evaluate next year.
 

Adair M

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Azalea will bud back very well.

I would cut it back very hard. See the 5 (or so) major branches? After they leave the main trunk they extend 10 inches or so with no taper. Cut each one, leaving a stub an inch and a half to two inches long. All you'll have is the trunk, and stubs. It will pop back buds everywhere!

This is important: when you make the cuts, cut them off square. Maybe need to use a saw. Seal them IMMEDIATELY with Top-Jin cut paste. (available on Amazon). It's the orange stuff. Cover the cut ends, especially the green cambium. It will look pretty bad with the orange paste! It takes Top-Jin a day to dry. Top-Jin has antibacterial and anti-fungal qualities. After a day, and the top-Jin is dry, cover the orange with the grey putty cut paste. It will make it look a lot better! But even more important, Top-Jin is somewhat water soluable. Rain, sun and watering will dissolve it over time. The grey putty protects it and keeps the anti bacterial and fungus stuff working longer. This helps to prevent dieback.

The time to do this in your area is NOW!
 

Jphipps

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Thanks guys. Adair, I ordered the two types of cut paste. Once they come in I'll make the cuts. I'm excited to see how this one develops and am looking forward to building the ramification and turning this into something pretty cool.
 

Jphipps

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One more question. On the right most portion where the subtrunks split, there is a bit of a fattened portion. Do you think I should cut above that or below it to remove the swelling? I would then be reducing this to 3 subtrunks instead of 4. I sort of feel like the uneven number would look better. Thoughts?

Also, the 2 growths all the way to the right will be removed completely. They leave the trunk down by the base and add nothing good to the design.
 

Adair M

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Without having the tree in front of me, it's had to give specific styling advice. A lot depends upon the view angle, leaning the trunk over a little, etc.

About removing an entire azalea branch: don't do it in one go. Leave a stub. 1/2 inch to 1 inch long. Treat with cut paste. If you cut it off flush to the trunk immediately, it may die back under where the branch attached to the trunk, and the dieback might go all the way down to the roots. Azalea are more prone to go this than other trees. So, first year, cut branch back had, but leave a stump. The second year, you can cut it back flush. Do not dig into the trunk with concave cutters. Use cutters that will allow you to cut it level to the trunk. Cover with cut paste.
 
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Without having the tree in front of me, it's had to give specific styling advice. A lot depends upon the view angle, leaning the trunk over a little, etc.

About removing an entire azalea branch: don't do it in one go. Leave a stub. 1/2 inch to 1 inch long. Treat with cut paste. If you cut it off flush to the trunk immediately, it may die back under where the branch attached to the trunk, and the dieback might go all the way down to the roots. Azalea are more prone to go this than other trees. So, first year, cut branch back had, but leave a stump. The second year, you can cut it back flush. Do not dig into the trunk with concave cutters. Use cutters that will allow you to cut it level to the trunk. Cover with cut paste.

Good stuff Adair..
 

bonsaidave

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Are you planning to reduce the roots at the same time you chop the branches or wait for new spring growth?
 

Harunobu

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Don't seal cuts. It will not keep out fungi or bacteria. It will not prevent bleeding. It will not help heal the wound.

The seal will provide cover for bacteria. Bleeding from wounds is an intentional mechanism that plants use to compartmentalize damaged tissue. A plant does not heal a wound. It rejects the dead or damaged tissue and eventually overgrows it. When you seal it, you create a pocket for dead tissue and bacteria and you block out the space for new tissue to grow once the wound is healed.

Once bonsai people realized the science was convincing that trees do not need cut paste people came up with a new theory as why to follow the traditional bonsai methods. Apparently. you can use it to control scarring. If you want to believe that, go for it. In terms of tree health the research shows it is more harmful than beneficial. But on bonsai aesthetics and scarring, there is no research.
 
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GrimLore

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Hey guys. I recently found this large azalea at a nursery.

When you do your chop I would highly suggest reducing the root mass you will more then likely find in there. Looks to be at least soda can thick. When they are that thick I take down the root mass to 4 inches deep and I don't fool with them at all. I slip pot them into decent draining soil mix like so -

GEDC1458.JPG

Tap Root over 3 inches for comparison -

GEDC1459.JPG

The pot is close to 17 inches wide -

GEDC1461.JPG

That was last Spring, today it is under the snow but I am certain it is fine. For the record I find cut paste optional and really think it has a lot to do with climate, conditions, and other variables.

After the work put it in a shaded area, damp, NEVER wet. In two to four weeks it will be going nuts. Up here four weeks is more common.

Nice find!

Grimmy
 

Adair M

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Don't seal cuts. It will not keep out fungi or bacteria. It will not prevent bleeding. It will not help heal the wound.

The seal will provide cover for bacteria. Bleeding from wounds is an intentional mechanism that plants use to compartmentalize damaged tissue. A plant does not heal a wound. It rejects the dead or damaged tissue and eventually overgrows it. When you seal it, you create a pocket for dead tissue and bacteria and you block out the space for new tissue to grow once the wound is healed.

Once bonsai people realized the science was convincing that trees do not need cut paste people came up with a new theory as why to follow the traditional bonsai methods. Apparently. you can use it to control scarring. If you want to believe that, go for it. In terms of tree health the research shows it is more harmful than beneficial. But on bonsai aesthetics and scarring, there is no research.
Harunobu,

If I cut myself, I will bleed. If the cut is not too bad, my blood will eventually clot and stop the bleeding. On its own.

However, if I'm able to put some pressure on the cut, the clotting happens faster, and I lose less blood. If the wound is fairly large, a couple stitches helps to hold the wound together so healing can take place quicker.

Do I "need" stitches to heal? Probably not in most cases, but I might have a disfiguring scar. Or, the wound opens back up, and gets infected. Gangrene could set in. I'd lose my arm or leg to gangrene.

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's close.

I'm not going to insist you use cut paste. But I will advise it. Every time. Especially on azalea!
 

GrimLore

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But I will advise it. Every time. Especially on azalea!

Curious what @johng thoughts are on it at first cut back. No disrespect but perhaps climate wise with far less insects mine have done ok with and without it. Now on final cuts where one might to attempt healing wounds on Azalea(good luck) could be a different tale but hey what the hell do I know :rolleyes: Keep in mind I am talking about fairly large stock where wounds eventually land up shaped to be a feature.

Grimmy
 

Adair M

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Azalea are very thin barked. Once the dieback begins, it follows the waterline back towards the roots.

I have seen azalea dieback cause a whole side of the trunk to die.

That double sealing protocall is how they do it in Japan, to get the fat trunks and fast taper. To get the fat trunks, they have to let sacrifice branches grow. To get taper, they have to cut them off. But they don't want ugly scars, which means they want them to heal. The process I describes is how they get them to heal.

Owen Reich also advocates applying cut paste immediately. And when I say "immediately" I mean within 30 seconds.

Maybe that's why some say it doesn't work. They apply the cut paste too late. Maybe an hour later, maybe 5 minutes. The guy I learned from said "immediately". Owen says "immediately". I going with what they say.
 

GrimLore

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That double sealing protocall is how they do it in Japan, to get the fat trunks and fast taper.

I understand, just have not had those problems with or without. I do read as well ;) I am referring to what most consider "large" victims - 3, 4, 5 inch tap root 50 year old and more freshly collected. As long as the first cuts at collection are done proper the second more finished cut is done in such a fashion they are buried in the canopy or carved a bit downward so the bark can slowly cover the scar but looks ok as is...

I am not arrogant enough to attempt or claim fully healing a 3 - 4 inch wide and tall wound and say I can do it in my life time... I know the plant and the bark.

Grimmy
 

Adair M

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Yeah, a 3 or 4 inch scar would be really hard to close. I think they don't let them get that big. More like 1/2 inch, cut them off and heal. Multiple times.
 

Harunobu

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It is a perfect analogy. A perfect analogy on why it is wrong. You are an animal, not a plant.

Plants do not heal.

Thin-barked or not. Azalea or not. Japanese tradition or not.

Look. This is an old way of thinking about how plants heal. You give exactly the argument people always used to treat wounds on plants to make them heal.
Then, some people actually went out and did experiments to see if this treatment actually works rather than just thinking it works on plants because we think it works on humans.
Turns out they found out empirically that it doesn't. And we now also know why. Plants don't heal their wounds. They compartmentalize them.

That's why almost all professionals, who give advances in horticulture a thought, stopped sealing cuts decades ago. Yet bonsai people still do it, because Japan. They still make the fallacious arguments.

I am not saying a treatment for tree wounds can never exist. But the traditional way to seal up wounds impairs the processes trees use to heal their wounds and the arguments used are contrary to evidence.

And even trees did heal like humans, when at significant risk of infection, you wouldn't close up all human wounds either. And even if you think sealing up is best, you still have to prove the treatment is correct through experiment and through underlying knowledge about the processes at hand.
In both cases, in plants, these say nay to sealing wounds.

How the hell do you think you know you have to seal a plant wound within 30 seconds? It's just made up. What is happening in the plant that happens within 30 secondss of the cut being made that makes these 30 seconds so crucial? And how do you know this is so?

Sources:
Wound dressings: results of studies over 13 years, Shigo, Alex L., and Walter C. Shortle.

A case can be made about preventing moisture loss on some plants when you cut them at the wrong time of the year, through even there it can be argued that letting it bleed excessively is better than sealing.. But better not to cut them at all. In that case, you can apply a bit of resin that will only last for days.
The only treatment for these wounds that will be beneficial in the future is to treat wounds by inoculating the wounds with the right microorganisms. Everything else is just treatment for your psyche.

That bonsai master advocate one thing or the other means nothing. They are just guessing or parroting tradition. Bonsai masters make nice trees using their artistic skills. They do not do experiments to establish new knowledge. They have some trial or error going on, but their sample size is too small and they have no controls. You can repeat what they do exactly and get the same results as they get. Obviously doing ineffectual and mildly harmful treatment, namely sealing wounds, does not make it impossible to produce impressive bonsai.
Unless they do a proper experiment they are just guessing. That their tress look nice says nothing.

Bonsai people can't agree on what paste to use either. One swears you need hard stuff, the other soft. Some people use silicon. Others use special bonsai paste. Why do they all disagree? Because they all make up stuff and it doesn't matter.

If you want to seal up wounds to make yourself feel like you have given your tree a good treatment; go for it. Research certainly does not indicate you are giving it a death sentence.
But for all the good it does, to your conscience as the desire to do something rather than noting is strong, it doesn't do the tree any good.
But someone who doesn't feel this need to seal up stuff, they don't need that advice. They only need to seal up stuff once you plant in their mind the desire to do so.
 
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Jphipps

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I appreciate everyone's imput. Sounds like the cut paste debate rages on. I tend to lean the way of scientific research opposed to tradition. I've never used cut paste in the past and I've had mixed results with chops. Sometimes a little dieback, sometimes a lot, sometimes none. Seems like the tree will do whatever the hell it wants to do. I have minimal experience with azaleas, so the cut paste idea seemed intriguing. As to the pruning and leaving a stub initially, this I will for sure do, even on the branches I'd like to completely get rid of. Also I didn't know about cutting the branches flush to the trunk. This seems very important from an aesthetic perspective.
 

Adair M

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It is a perfect analogy. A perfect analogy on why it is wrong. You are an animal, not a plant.

Plants do not heal.

Thin-barked or not. Azalea or not. Japanese tradition or not.

Look. This is an old way of thinking about how plants heal. You give exactly the argument people always used to treat wounds on plants to make them heal.
Then, some people actually went out and did experiments to see if this treatment actually works rather than just thinking it works on plants because we think it works on humans.
Turns out they found out empirically that it doesn't. And we now also know why. Plants don't heal their wounds. They compartmentalize them.

That's why almost all professionals, who give advances in horticulture a thought, stopped sealing cuts decades ago. Yet bonsai people still do it, because Japan. They still make the fallacious arguments.

I am not saying a treatment for tree wounds can never exist. But the traditional way to seal up wounds impairs the processes trees use to heal their wounds and the arguments used are contrary to evidence.

And even trees did heal like humans, when at significant risk of infection, you wouldn't close up all human wounds either. And even if you think sealing up is best, you still have to prove the treatment is correct through experiment and through underlying knowledge about the processes at hand.
In both cases, in plants, these say nay to sealing wounds.

How the hell do you think you know you have to seal a plant wound within 30 seconds? It's just made up. What is happening in the plant that happens within 30 secondss of the cut being made that makes these 30 seconds so crucial? And how do you know this is so?

Sources:
Wound dressings: results of studies over 13 years, Shigo, Alex L., and Walter C. Shortle.

A case can be made about preventing moisture loss on some plants when you cut them at the wrong time of the year, through even there it can be argued that letting it bleed excessively is better than sealing.. But better not to cut them at all. In that case, you can apply a bit of resin that will only last for days.
The only treatment for these wounds that will be beneficial in the future is to treat wounds by inoculating the wounds with the right microorganisms. Everything else is just treatment for your psyche.

That bonsai master advocate one thing or the other means nothing. They are just guessing or parroting tradition. Bonsai masters make nice trees using their artistic skills. They do not do experiments to establish new knowledge. They have some trial or error going on, but their sample size is too small and they have no controls. You can repeat what they do exactly and get the same results as they get. Obviously doing ineffectual and mildly harmful treatment, namely sealing wounds, does not make it impossible to produce impressive bonsai.
Unless they do a proper experiment they are just guessing. That their tress look nice says nothing.

Bonsai people can't agree on what paste to use either. One swears you need hard stuff, the other soft. Some people use silicon. Others use special bonsai paste. Why do they all disagree? Because they all make up stuff and it doesn't matter.

If you want to seal up wounds to make yourself feel like you have given your tree a good treatment; go for it. Research certainly does not indicate you are giving it a death sentence.
But for all the good it does, to your conscience as the desire to do something rather than noting is strong, it doesn't do the tree any good.
But someone who doesn't feel this need to seal up stuff, they don't need that advice. They only need to seal up stuff once you plant in their mind the desire to do so.
Trees don't heal? News to me! Maybe it's your definition of "heal". Wounds will callous over and cover exposed heartwood. Not all species do. Some more than others. Different trees react differently to wounds.

I am not a botanist so I can't argue the biological processes with you. But I do have 40 years of messing around with bonsai trees as a basis for my statements. Owen, I believe, does have a degree in horticulture, as well as training in Japan on bonsai.

I do not know exactly how the "dieback" process works when you cut an azalea branch. Scientifically, that is. If you don't put cut paste on, the damaged cells die. Then the ones touching them. Then the ones touching those... And so it goes. How far back? Hard to say. Why does it die back? Is there some chemical released by the damaged cells? Are bacteria and or virus and or fungus able to attack because of the opening the damaged cells make? I really don't know. But I do know that sealing immediately can prevent dieback from starting.
 

Owen Reich

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Just checked up on old posts and saw this. While I appreciate Adair's invocation of my name in the argument, there is a time an place for certain techniques. I apply cut paste quickly to some thin back species like azaleas to open cuts from drying out too much. Not every cut needs cuts paste and not all in under a minute.

I use the grey cut paste on large cuts and the liquid beige stuff on some species. The argument has been made many times for and against cut paste. As a horticulturist, certified arborist, and bonsaier my conclusion is it makes me feel better doing it so I keep doing it. I've also done some informal experiments on different species making cuts on the same tree or different trees at the same time. Cut pasted wounds with the grey putty vs no paste almost always healed more cleanly in favor of the pasted ones.

Attached is a photo of the aftermath of a cut on a big side branch in February 2015. Wound was carved smooth then outer edge smoothed in two passes: ( then ) with a grafting knife for uniform callus formation. Pic is from July 2015. Paste is pushed off as callus seals pretty much every time.

I do not think cut paste insulates from fungi, bacteria, or viruses. I feel that it benefits the plant in the short term for prompting healing but this is just my opinion. Some brands dry into a thick plastic that tears off bark and others get sucked under callus tissue which I don't like dealing with.
 

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