Bill Valvanis "Dwarf Japanese maple" - any idea what cultivar?

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Canada Bonsai

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There are maple societies where one can easily learn about cultivar process and preservation, and there is a large body of scholarship on Acer palmatum taxonomy that can be useful reading. But one need not focus on Acer palmatum at all; the core concept of 'cultivar' (regardless of species) goes back at least 2000 years and basic but sufficient descriptions can be found in most 101-textbooks. This is entry-level knowledge, and it is clear that some people have simply not done the required reading and would rather troll people far more knowledgeable on the topic than them.

This question comes up often, but in most cases people quickly learn and understand that it was a mistake to try to assign a cultivar name to a specific Acer palmatum specimen based on observation alone. Even if one had attained the expertise and experience of Vertrees (for example), that is simply not how cultivar assignment works. In fact, doing so can have legal consequences; there have been several massive and well-known lawsuits made public in this domain as well as countless private cases (some involving people that I know well). Yes, the process begins by initially selecting observable traits (in most instances), but once chosen and instated as a cultivar only specific propagation methods can be used to perpetuate and multiply that cultivar (once cannot walk around and 'find' them). One does not identify pre-existing specimens as a given cultivar based on observable traits (except in very specific circumstances that do not apply here).

By assigning cultivars to plants based on one's opinion you are putting at risk the purity of the cultivar: for example, what happens if you sell the plant? What happens if you propagate the plant? What happens if 10 years from now you've forgotten how that plant came to have its name on that little tag you made and now you now go ahead and assume that the plant is in fact the cultivar that the tag says it is, rather than it being the case that it simply might be that cultivar? What happens if you die and the plant somehow ends up in the hands of one of the biggest Japanese maple propagation nurseries in the world? and so on.

There is also question as to why you would want to assign a cultivar name to a specific Acer palmatum specimen anyways:

If your intention is to enjoy a Japanese Maple there really is no need to even ask the question. It's important to keep in mind that the assignment of a name/cultivar to genetic strains is from the start all quite arbitrary: it is intended to preserve a specific set of traits based mostly on the observable qualities of the leaf and/or growth habit of a plant. But how/why was one seedling chosen to be 'Deshojo' and not its neighbouring seedling? Would you be less happy if your neighbour had a 'Deshojo' and you had a tree nearly identical to it? Are names that important if one is happy with what one has? If there was a big pink maple growing in my yard I would not care if it was a 'Beni Chidori' or not.

That said, the somewhat arbitrary nature of this initial assignment of a cultivar name to a genetic strain does not undermine the fact that there is nonetheless tremendous value in preserving that set of traits (and in doing so without the interference of guess work). For example, one reason this is important is so that cultivars can be exchanged and people can know what to expect. Imagine going to a nursery and asking for "a smallish one with redish leaves and like pointy lobes but not too pointy kind of and that is red and then greenish-bronze and in the fall is kind of like orangy-red and that grows kind of upwards but also outwards but not a lot".

It might also be helpful to know that in Japan it is standard practice for pre-bonsai nurseries to grow seeds from a cultivar (for example), and then observe and keep the best ones to train as bonsai. With this approach, these seedlings will never be 'X-cultivar', and it does not matter. In most cases they don't even go through the trouble of labelling the seedlings as 'seedlings of X-cultivar'. They just are what they are. If they have the traits that are appropriate for bonsai then that's enough information.

In Japan there are also many varieties whose name is based on geographical location instead of 'cultivar' as we know it. Unfortunately, once the plants have arrived in North America these terms are sometimes mistaken as cultivar names which causes chaos for producers and consumers alike: who has the 'real' one and who has the 'fake' one becomes a very common, and very ridiculous, debate.

Edit: @Bonsai Nut it's funny that the test you proposed was also a trap. Why would somebody who was certain name 10 cultivars? Shouldn't naming just 1 suffice? 🤣
 
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A. Gorilla

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You get bonus points for very nice cultivars. However I think you are going to be underwhelmed with the name...

View attachment 445509

I will be writing up a review of the nursery shortly - I am going back either Friday or Saturday of this week. J & G's Japanese Maple Nursery in Woodleaf, NC. He gets his maples from wholesalers in Oregon. I bought five trees that appealed to me, and the sixth was "nursery choice". I asked him to pick out a cultivar for me that he thought was really interesting. The only limit was I didn't want a variegate. He picked out this tree because of the red branches and the red veins in the leaves and he said it isn't broadly available.

And that's all I know about it :)

However my point was simply... even when you KNOW it is a cultivar, determining which one can be nearly impossible. I see some big red Japanese maples in my neighborhood and think they are probably all bloodgoods... because it is the most popular JM cultivar sold, and the trees fit the description as a large, palmate leafed, red JM. However even if I might be pretty sure... I'm not certain. I don't know how you ever could be - just from appearance.
This is a cruel and bitter defeat that I won't soon forget.
 

A. Gorilla

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There are maple societies where one can easily learn about cultivar process and preservation, and there is a large body of scholarship on Acer palmatum taxonomy that can be useful reading. But one need not focus on Acer palmatum at all; the core concept of 'cultivar' (regardless of species) goes back at least 2000 years and basic but sufficient descriptions can be found in most 101-textbooks. This is entry-level knowledge, and it is clear that some people have simply not done the required reading and would rather troll people far more knowledgeable on the topic than them.

This question comes up often, but in most cases people quickly learn and understand that it was a mistake to try to assign a cultivar name to a specific Acer palmatum specimen based on observation alone. Even if one had attained the expertise and experience of Vertrees (for example), that is simply not how cultivar assignment works. In fact, doing so can have legal consequences; there have been several massive and well-known lawsuits made public in this domain as well as countless private cases (some involving people that I know well). Yes, the process begins by initially selecting observable traits (in most instances), but once chosen and instated as a cultivar only specific propagation methods can be used to perpetuate and multiply that cultivar (once cannot walk around and 'find' them). One does not identify pre-existing specimens as a given cultivar based on observable traits (except in very specific circumstances that do not apply here).

By assigning cultivars to plants based on one's opinion you are putting at risk the purity of the cultivar: for example, what happens if you sell the plant? What happens if you propagate the plant? What happens if 10 years from now you've forgotten how that plant came to have its name on that little tag you made and now you now go ahead and assume that the plant is in fact the cultivar that the tag says it is, rather than it being the case that it simply might be that cultivar? What happens if you die and the plant somehow ends up in the hands of one of the biggest Japanese maple propagation nurseries in the world? and so on.

There is also question as to why you would want to assign a cultivar name to a specific Acer palmatum specimen anyways:

If your intention is to enjoy a Japanese Maple there really is no need to even ask the question. It's important to keep in mind that the assignment of a name/cultivar to genetic strains is from the start all quite arbitrary: it is intended to preserve a specific set of traits based mostly on the observable qualities of the leaf and/or growth habit of a plant. But how/why was one seedling chosen to be 'Deshojo' and not its neighbouring seedling? Would you be less happy if your neighbour had a 'Deshojo' and you had a tree nearly identical to it? Are names that important if one is happy with what one has? If there was a big pink maple growing in my yard I would not care if it was a 'Beni Chidori' or not.

That said, the somewhat arbitrary nature of this initial assignment of a cultivar name to a genetic strain does not undermine the fact that there is nonetheless tremendous value in preserving that set of traits (and in doing so without the interference of guess work). For example, one reason this is important is so that cultivars can be exchanged and people can know what to expect. Imagine going to a nursery and asking for "a smallish one with redish leaves and like pointy lobes but not too pointy kind of and that is red and then greenish-bronze and in the fall is kind of like orangy-red and that grows kind of upwards but also outwards but not a lot".

It might also be helpful to know that in Japan it is standard practice for pre-bonsai nurseries to grow seeds from a cultivar (for example), and then observe and keep the best ones to train as bonsai. With this approach, these seedlings will never be 'X-cultivar', and it does not matter. In most cases they don't even go through the trouble of labelling the seedlings as 'seedlings of X-cultivar'. They just are what they are. If they have the traits that are appropriate for bonsai then that's enough information.

In Japan there are also many varieties whose name is based on geographical location instead of 'cultivar' as we know it. Unfortunately, once the plants have arrived in North America these terms are sometimes mistaken as cultivar names which causes chaos for producers and consumers alike: who has the 'real' one and who has the 'fake' one becomes a very common, and very ridiculous, debate.

Edit: @Bonsai Nut it's funny that the test you proposed was also a trap. Why would somebody who was certain name 10 cultivars? Shouldn't naming just 1 suffice? 🤣
Joke's on you. I just translated a yo momma joke into Japanese. 🤡
 

Bonsai Nut

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Joke's on you. I just translated a yo momma joke into Japanese. 🤡
I wondered about that :) Because it didn't sound like any cultivar name I had ever heard of, LOL. But I had to go out and mow the lawn and didn't have time to check them :)
LOL very true when you pick one that isn't in the guide.

I thought you were going to try to make your point by showing how hard it is when it IS in the guide.
I wasn't trying to trick anyone. To be honest, I'm not sure how many of my cultivars ARE in that guide, because I haven't checked every one. I just did a quick Google on the name, and it IS showing up in nursery lists, though not as frequently as "Purple Ghost" and "Purple Curl".
 
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Cadillactaste

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I went to Bill's website...and looked up the sales list for available young seedlings. I think poster is over thinking their material. Screenshot_20220705-174355_Samsung Notes.jpg

Reading this thread reminds me why I choose not to participate any longer. Opinions are not fact because one states it as such.

First thread I opened...after one in a Facebook group mentioned they were coming back and spending time here. So I popped in...and...will now bid goodbye.

Best of luck to you all...I just find I've zero tolerance for such discussions.
 

amcoffeegirl

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If I have a named cultivar on my bench and I see it everyday then someone says what tree is this, with a photo, then I do feel pretty comfortable saying the name. Or saying look up this cultivar and compare yours to it.
 

Bonsai Nut

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it’s not a maple at all.
Cheater! :)

Joking aside, I just spent this evening sorting out my P. parviflora and P. strobus cultivars. I had a momentary panic attack when I went outside and found one of the tags had faded to illegibility... and then I confused where I had gotten it from with another nursery. One would think I was pretty organized, but apparently not :)
 

penumbra

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Cheater! :)

Joking aside, I just spent this evening sorting out my P. parviflora and P. strobus cultivars. I had a momentary panic attack when I went outside and found one of the tags had faded to illegibility... and then I confused where I had gotten it from with another nursery. One would think I was pretty organized, but apparently not :)
Happens to me frequently. I am now trying to put embossed metal tags on everything.
 

Pitoon

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I don't get it. It's like people are mad that any cultivar at all was suggested, even when kotohime was spot on.

People are not mad, it's just that some people don't get it. This subject has been discussed on a numerous amount of times.

When buying a plant species that has multiple phenotypes (cultivars) and it's not labeled/tagged one has to accept the fact that at that point it's just a normal of that species. There's no guessing or comparing, it's just a normal....why because one will never know. That's why your JM was labeled as a dwarf JM. If it was a cultivar it would have been labeled as such. Maybe at one point the tree was labeled and the tag was lost, who knows. But what is truth is that your tree is a JM and looks to be a dwarf variety.

Tag identification is very important with JM and especially in azaleas. While two plants can somewhat look the same they are not identical genetically. I have lost cultivars because had forgot to tag them. At that point they become just a normal of that species.

If you want a named cultivar.....buy a named cultivar.
 

Pitoon

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This is why nurseries have to tag ALL their cultivars. No tag, no cultivar. In fact, when I was buying citrus for my landscape in California, the trees would come with TWO cultivar tags - one for the scion and one for the rootstock, since different rootstock is better for some conditions versus others. If you are a commercial nursery you aren't going to "guess" what rootstock you are getting for your nursery.
Exactly! All my grafted Mume have two tags, the grafted cultivar and the root stock. Different rootstocks perform/behave differently in terms of growth, preferred soil type, disease/pest resistance, etc....

I am growing Mume to perform well in a multitude of growing situations and soil types.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I went to Bill's website...and looked up the sales list for available young seedlings. I think poster is over thinking their material.
Ironically, from the product description, this material may be MORE valuable than a typical JM landscape cultivar, because it was specially chosen for characteristics that make it good for bonsai... and was developed for the pre-bonsai market.

If we need to have a cultivar name, I will give it one. From now on it will be known as A. palmatum "Chick-fil-A" :) That way if you try to sell it you will be sued for trademark infringement :)
 

Mikecheck123

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Ironically, from the product description, this material may be MORE valuable than a typical JM landscape cultivar, because it was specially chosen for characteristics that make it good for bonsai... and was developed for the pre-bonsai market.

If we need to have a cultivar name, I will give it one. From now on it will be known as A. palmatum "Chick-fil-A" :) That way if you try to sell it you will be sued for trademark infringement :)
Check-fil-A? I already called naming dibs way back on the first page! :)

The other irony in this thread is that the person who actually did know all about has apparently quit the site. I thank her for her contributions nevertheless.
 

Nybonsai12

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The funny thing is I suggested kotohime because I misread your first post. I thought you had purchased a dwarf variety cultivar and lost the label. I know bill sells kotohime so with that and the fact that it somewhat resembled kotohime I threw out the thought. With that said if it wasn’t specifically sold to you as a specific cultivar then it’s likely just a regular dwarf as already has been indicated. But man what a ride to get here!
 

Maiden69

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I have a kotohime that is a clone of Bill's original tree, I don't see it in Bill's website today (he did sold it last year I think), but they are still being sold online by Matt Ouwinga (Kaede-en). Bill do have a dwarf JM, but the growth is different from the one in the kotohime, the OP's tree could be the regular JM dwarf.

Info from Kaede-en on the kotohime
The Kotohime Japanese Maple is a rare and wonderful dwarf variety of Japanese Maple that was introduced by American bonsai legend Bill Valavanis. Our stock is a clone from a tree that Bill gifted to the nursery many years ago. This variety has tiny leaves and internodes. This variety naturally swells at the base, leading to a beautiful nebari. Grown from cuttings at Kaede Bonsai-en, these trees are well established in 2 1/4" containers.

Here is a pic of mine at the beginning of the season.
Koto Hime 1.jpg

Last year
 

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The other irony in this thread is that the person who actually did know all about has apparently quit the site. I thank her for her contributions nevertheless.
You were told it was probably a seedling from a dwarf variety, but you insisted it was some mysterious and magical cultivar from Bill V.

You then talked about naming it yourself which is even more laughable.

Maybe just enjoy it for what it is? (A dwarf japanese maple seedling)
 
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