Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

[Adair M]

Hi Adair. I haven't replaced them yet, but I'd imagine they'll be good for a few months. I'd say that, at a minimum, I'd replace them in spring and fall. Did you get the larger pellets or the small ones?

S

I got some of both. I bought all Jonas had left at the end of the show. I also use the cakes that come in the big tins. I have both large and small of those, too.

 

[markyscott]

I got some of both. I bought all Jonas had left at the end of the show. I also use the cakes that come in the big tins. I have both large and small of those, too.

I'll order from him soon - he has the best price for it that I've seen.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

Yep, fun it is. Will you repot and wire at same time? Worked fine with juniper for me but haven't done it with pines yet. I have a 2y old batch waiting for some fun...

Hi Dirk - I'll make a plan and document it when I work them. I'm generally conservative when it comes to that, preferring to not wire and repot in the same season.

Scott

 

[0soyoung]

Hi Dirk - I'll make a plan and document it when I work them. I'm generally conservative when it comes to that, preferring to not wire and repot in the same season.

I cannot think of a better time to wire and bend/twist up young trunks than when the seedling/saplings are out of the pot (and essentially bare rooted) - no extra root damage from jiggling/shaking them around in pots.

 

[markyscott]

I cannot think of a better time to wire and bend/twist up young trunks than when the seedling/saplings are out of the pot (and essentially bare rooted) - no extra root damage from jiggling/shaking them around in pots.

It may be that's the best way to go. For what it's worth, in the old Bonsai Today article they teach us to wire in the first spring after cutting and repot in the second. But I'm a student when it comes to this - I'm open to advice.

Scott

 

[0soyoung]

It may be that's the best way to go. For what it's worth, in the old Bonsai Today article they teach us to wire in the first spring after cutting and repot in the second. But I'm a student when it comes to this - I'm open to advice.

Scott

It is what I've generally done, based on some experience and that line of reasoning.

But, being a 'science guy', you could randomly assign your seedlings to two groups. One group you do the Bonsai Today way, the other my favored way, and you can see for yourself whether it matters (the downside is that you will have to keep the group tags on your trees for 2-plus years).

I've 'had my way' () with the Lodgepole pine and Douglas fir saplings that were used in my repotting experiments, in both spring and Aug/Sep repotting and have convinced myself that 'my way' is the 'right way' )). If nothing else it is more easily done 'my way', but I honestly do think it is safer than trying to bend saplings in pots (too much ado making sure one doesn't rock the roots too much).

 

[hemmy]

Great thread! I plan to start another batch this year and I'll try the listed seed source. I tried a small batch of 'mikawa' seeds last year with a very poor germination rate and zero survived. I understand varieties like mikawa, arakawa, etc. are based on Japanese geographic areas. What is the consensus on how stable or 'true' these varieties are from seed? Assuming a variety like mikawa (smaller needles?) retains the trait in seeds, are those smaller needles that much more significant than what can be obtained with proper techniques on a standard JBP?

And does anyone have a source of specific varieties?

 

[markyscott]

Great thread! I plan to start another batch this year and I'll try the listed seed source. I tried a small batch of 'mikawa' seeds last year with a very poor germination rate and zero survived. I understand varieties like mikawa, arakawa, etc. are based on Japanese geographic areas. What is the consensus on how stable or 'true' these varieties are from seed? Assuming a variety like mikawa (smaller needles?) retains the trait in seeds, are those smaller needles that much more significant than what can be obtained with proper techniques on a standard JBP?

And does anyone have a source of specific varieties?

Here's what I understand about the geographic varieties of Japanese Black Pine:

Any Japanese black pine originating from Awaji Island in the Hyōgo Prefecture is considered to be an Awaji. A nice silver gray color bark that flakes off the tree. Awaji has thick bark, but at some point will start to flake off and not get any thicker.


Any Japanese black pine originating from the Aichii Prefecture is considered to be a Mikawa. Distinguished by its deeply fissured and flaking, deep bluish colored bark. Sometimes the bark begins to crack and show ridges in about four years. Tends to grow very thick bark which also tends to be a lot harder so it doesn't flake off as easy.


Here is a map showing the locations of the mentioned prefectures.



Scheffields advertises that they have a source for Mikawa:
https://www.sheffields.com/

Let us know what you find.
Scott

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bonsai Today 43 has an article by Pius Notter working on a JBP from Shikoku Island. It had very dark bark, and dark green, short needles. It was an exceptional tree. I'd like to find a good Shikoku JBP.

I've had Mikawa JBP, and in fact George Muranaka said all his JBP seed is Mikawa. Like Scott says, good bark and needle color. The bark is almost purple, and tends to plate up nicely. Needles are deep, but bright green.

I found a couple Awaji seedlings and grew them out for a few years, but they both died when I needed to dig and move them. After learning about the bark issues from Peter Tea's blog, I decided not to try them again. The bark was more silver, and the needles were duller in color.

 

[markyscott]

Another interesting map to keep in mind is the horticultural zone map for Japan. Although it doesn't tell the whole climate story, it's interesting to note that Japanese Black Pine live as far south as southern Kyushu (Zone 9B) and Okinawa (Zone 10b-11, I think). Most of their range is in Zone 8-9.



Scott

 

[hemmy]

Good info on the regions. Like most things, it seems there is no great consensus the stability of these regionally named pines. There is more good info on the "JBP Question" thread. Now back to your regularly scheduled program, so as not to derail this thread.

 

[0soyoung]

Another interesting map to keep in mind is the horticultural zone map for Japan. Although it doesn't tell the whole climate story, it's interesting to note that Japanese Black Pine live as far south as southern Kyushu (Zone 9B) and Okinawa (Zone 10b-11, I think). Most of their range is in Zone 8-9.

Japan is just like NEGeorgia!

 

[Anthony]

Grows down here very well. Zone 13 ----------- lowest temp 66 deg.F - no chance of frost.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[markyscott]

Grows down here very well. Zone 13 ----------- lowest temp 66 deg.F - no chance of frost.
Good Day
Anthony

Papa Kaneshiro grew them in Honolulu - that's probably similar to your climate. I was living there while he was still in his prime. Wish I would have met him.

Scott

 

[Adair M]

Papa Kaneshiro grew them in Honolulu - that's probably similar to your climate. I was living there while he was still in his prime. Wish I would have met him.

Scott

Scott, that's an excellent video for Anthony!

Thank you for posting it!

 

[Anthony]

Sifu had suggested the Hawaii search a while ago.

Hawaii's zone of hardness map -http://maxpull.gdvuch3veo.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2004/09/hawaii_map_lg.gif

Guess we would be zone 13 B

Anyhow, thanks for the help and when I get some free time I will image some of our attempts, please try not to laugh
Good Day
Anthony

* I suspect our "mountains" are zone 12 A

 

[markyscott]

Seedling cuttings are a little over 1 1/2 years. Let's see if we can get a few started as exposed root. Eric Schrader has a great description of how to do it in this post. I think his are 10 or 11 years on now. Here's a Facebook post about some work that Danny Coffey did on one that Morten Wellhaven's trees grown using similar methods to what we'll try here - also a very nice tree. I've never done this before, but I've read carefully what Eric and Jonas Dupuich have done - now I'll try to apply what I've learned from them.

Materials - 10" pond baskets and 1 gallon nursery containers


Very coarse lava rock - up to 1", drainage layer material, and good quality bonsai soil


Wire, tools, and, of course, the seedling cuttings. They'll be 2 years old next April:


Scott

 

[markyscott]

First, prep the pots. I wired the pond baskets, put down a drainage layer and then bonsai soil on top.



Next place one of the 1 gallon pots face down on the bonsai soil in the pond basket and cut the bottom off.


Cut the bottom off another 1 gallon pot, nest the two pots and duct tape them together. Then wire the assembly to the pond basket.


Scott

 

[markyscott]

Next, mix the coarse lava rock with drainage layer material. Nothing that holds onto nutrients - no organics, no clay based material - and very coarse grained. You want the roots to stay alive, but you want them to just grow through this material into the pond basket.

I think the drainage material I used was a mix of +3/8" lava rock, pumice and haydite.


Pour the mixture into the 1 gallon pot assembly. Fill to a level a couple of inches below the top of the 1 gallon pot assembly. Then top it off with a layer of bonsai soil.


Scott

 

[markyscott]

Next, bare root the seedling and root prune for balance - you want similar strength roots extending all around the trunk. So cut the strong ones and leave the fine ones alone. Cut some holes on top of the 1 gallon pot for 2mm wire to hold the seedling cutting in place.


I wired the trunk of the cutting with 3.5mm wire while it was bare-rooted leaving about 3" of wire sticking straight down from the bottom of the root ball. I then put some low bends in the trunk, pushed the wire down into the 1 gallon container and wired the seedling into place. Once wired I put more bonsai soil on top and watered it thoroughly.



One down, 80 to go.

Scott