Bonsai forums a bad thing?

[Poink88]

I am late to this party...been busy dancing with Minnie, Mickey, Donald, Pluto, and Daisy (literally) and just got back to my hotel.

It is hard now since the OP modified his initial post after post #16...it muddies what was originally said and how.

Anyway, I think the forum helps a lot. Books and magazine articles are great but there are some vague areas that can be clarified by someone who've done it before. Forum is self correcting since any BS will be out in the open and can be easily challenged...even bashed.

Having a LIVE teacher is most likely the best way to learn but as mentioned...it is not for everyone. Some cannot afford it, do not have the time, do not have access to a good teacher, etc. It is just REALITY. Some don't even have next month rent money...much less airfare and tuition for an intensive. For those people (like me) forum is an invaluable source of info. I am for the most part self taught and while I can be better, I believe I've learned enough via books, mags and forums as a hobbyist.

Staying active in the forum doesn't mean we are not working on trees either. I am the chattiest person here (post total or average post per day since registration) but I can say too that I work more hours on my trees. It is not the years you dedicate on things that matter, it is HOW MUCH QUALITY EFFORT you put into it.

In my less than 3 years....I may have done more than some who are doing bonsai for many more years (as I was told by someone who actually know me). As Vance and Smoke always say...let the trees do the talking. Next year, I think some of mine will start to talk...not show quality but proud product of a self taught newbie for just 3 years. And I can proudly say too that I could have not done what I did if not for bonsai forums....specifically B-Nut!

So thanks to B-Nut knowledge donors!!!

 

[garywood]

Herein lies the problem with forums. Not critical but just a critique. Defining the 'Poles." Take Vance at one extreme with a 100 years of experience and Dario with 3 years Each has a valid point in their view but can be polar opposites. Are either right or wrong or are both right or wrong, depends on perspective and experience So, the problem is who is the audience and that brings the onus back to the viewer Don't you just love it. Just remember that idiocy is a condition of human nature Take it all with a grain of salt

 

[Eric Group]

Wow, this thing went south faster than my thread about an out of print book someone posted online! Touchy touchy!

Gotta love a good tar and feathering!

Are bonsai forums a bad thing? That is the question posed and the poor wording is what lead to such a negative response. To say yes to that is to imply NOTHING good comes of them (or at the least that more bad than good comes from them) which is clearly not the truth, as many good examples have been posted here of people sharing knowledge and sometimes- as in that thread I mentioned where I was the person tarred and feathered for posting a link to Naka's book- people even share books, tools, trees... There are plenty of good, sometimes great, things that come from a forum like this.

Now, as with ANY SITE ON THE INTERNET, you have to take the good with the bad. People will do and say stuff that will piss off other people and it will lead to arguments and all sorts of negativity.. People have to learn to sort the good info from the bad when asking for advice and confusion can ensue quite easily because we are just typing short responses with little real discussion, there are language barriers... Plenty of negatives can be pointed to... But again to imply these forums are "bad" or somehow counter productive is well, silly. I can absolutely see why some people who have invested so much time and energy into making this forum and others like it a valuable resource would be offended and upset by the implication that these forums are a bad thing. That is a slap in the face to everybody who takes time to seriously try to help people on these forums as it basically implies they have wasted their time here and their input is completely useless and unappreciated. Perhaps it wasn't worded exactly that way, and perhaps many who took offense to this question didn't even exactly understand why they were so pissed off by the post, but that is pretty much exactly why it rubs so many the wrong way. The OP's post was short sighted and poorly worded at best... At worst it was an intentional attempt to incite a riot of some sort. Hard to know what his intent truly was, but the fact he said in the post he suspected it might do just that basically... Well that doesn't bode well for his intentions.

I think we should ask an easier question- was this THREAD a bad thing? Clearly it has been thus far. People bickering, lots of mid being flung people basically threatening to leave... I would say this one wins the award for worst thread of the year so far at this point... But much like my wounded duck of a post about Naka's book that somewhere took an insane turn to comparisons to notorious hackers and other comparably recdiculoulsy confused legal BS... I think we have an opportunity right now to turn this one into a positive! Many people have already taken this as a challenge to post something about what you did to improve your trees/ benches/ collection/ skills today and that is where I think we can get some good out of this one! So instead of the tree thread, or the before and after thread, or whatever this thread was... We need to change it into the "what have you done for your trees today?" Thread!

 

[Eric Group]

Today was the first day of this summer/ later part of the Spring... That I did NOT have to water a single tree! It has just rained enough that all my trees were still damp when I cam home from lunch, then rained again soon after it got dark, so there was no need... I did go super nasty on some aphids that have been attacking a Firethorn of mine though. This is the second time I have attacked them this week... I came home from the beach this weekend to find them ALL OVER the poor tree after just being gone two days! I removed the with a heavy spray from a squirt bottle with a Neem Oil solution, along with some pinching. Today I found a small number had survived ( or returned?) so I sprayed and pinched them again... Gotta stay on top of those little bastards!!

Aside form that and a little dead needle removal from a Scots pine and some Bud picking on A Sargent Juni, (not Shimpaku, just a regular Juni Sargenti)- that was about all my trees got from me today.

 

[Vance Wood]

And before anybody gets confused, let me just make clear that I NEVER asked (nor ever want) anyone to leave this forum. I would surely leave before that would be placed on my head.

I really should not have put this on your head. Excuses are like nose; we all have one and they all smell. I really am sorry you were in the way of my anger at this guy. My sugar was way off the chart.

 

[shohin kid]

Well this has certainly been interesting. My original intent was to question how we spend our time in the hobby. Forums are a big part of it for some people, and I was merely questioning and sharing what I believed at the time I created this post. My hope was that this thread would cause people to question how they spend their time in bonsai.

I'm not big on forums myself, but it is good and fascinating to hear how forums like this one have helped people along in their bonsai journey. I'm glad some people have learned a lot from the forums, and I'm sad that there is some negativity on them as well. Although bonsai are import to each of us, we are all people who have a lot to offer, and we should treat each other as such.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about what the forums mean to people and other related comments.

 

[bonsaiBlake]

Water all the babies today. Threw a bunch of seeds i stratified that havent sprouted into a "junk seed flat" in hopes of something sprouting eventuallly. Took a bunch of pictures and did a bunch of planning, and of course did some more reading(bonsai techniques 2, of which i wouldn't be able to do had it not been for eric posting that howler of thread) Another day in the life of a newb.

 

[garywood]

Well this has certainly been interesting. My original intent was to question how we spend our time in the hobby. Forums are a big part of it for some people, and I was merely questioning and sharing what I believed at the time I created this post. My hope was that this thread would cause people to question how they spend their time in bonsai.

I'm not big on forums myself, but it is good and fascinating to hear how forums like this one have helped people along in their bonsai journey. I'm glad some people have learned a lot from the forums, and I'm sad that there is some negativity on them as well. Although bonsai are import to each of us, we are all people who have a lot to offer, and we should treat each other as such.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about what the forums mean to people and other related comments.

Kid, good intentions! Shit happens

 

[Eric Group]

Water all the babies today. Threw a bunch of seeds i stratified that havent sprouted into a "junk seed flat" in hopes of something sprouting eventuallly. Took a bunch of pictures and did a bunch of planning, and of course did some more reading(bonsai techniques 2, of which i wouldn't be able to do had it not been for eric posting that howler of thread) Another day in the life of a newb.

Good stuff man! I have learned something about seeds ( and trees in general I guess)- here it is... So get ready to write it down everyone, because this is big time insightful stuff!!

SEEDS (and trees obviously) WANT TO GROW!

Yep that was it... I get kind of blown away sometimes by all the crazy directions people will give you for getting seed a to sprout: cold stratify them in the freezer for 100 days, soak them for X hours in water and throw out all the ones that float or sink or do the back stroke... Take them to a seed bed (only type ____ works), put them under a plastic top or wrap it in Stan wrap... Dance a jig, mix a magic potion in a dead cow's horn... I guess all that stuff might make a few more seeds sprout... But I usually just collect them in the Fall, plant them in the Spring and watch the trees grow. I guess that method isn't "sexy" enough... But it works fine usually. I have like 5 Japanese Maple seedlings growing this year from seeds collected last Fall... Probably planted 10-15 seeds to get those 5... Had a few more that sprouted and died soon after- which happens to just about everyone... That isn't a terrible ratio considering I didn't do any of that witchcraft people talk about to get seeds to grow! In short, you might be surprised by the number of seeds you get to sprout. Good luck!

 

[bonsaiBlake]

whats funny is the ones i've had the best luck with are eastern white pine seeds no stratification, just thrown in a pot in miracle grow potting soil have a bunch that have sprouted and growing well, no cover no nothing, full sun and water every few days thats it. hopefully some of the juniper and ponderosa will sprout, orginally i had them in starting trays(1"x1"x2.5" in a mini greenhouse) and nothing.

 

[garywood]

I really should not have put this on your head. Excuses are like nose; we all have one and they all smell. I really am sorry you were in the way of my anger at this guy. My sugar was way off the chart.

Vance, as always, I'm a curious sort which direction was the sugar "curve" Of course you know that any curve has opposite ends

 

[sorce]

I cant beleive the amount of people that attacked SK, OP, for this post.

Clearly misunderstood.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I read the original post as this: do forums cause people to spend too much time talking and not enough time doing?

Of course there will be some backlash to that question.

Whether we like it or not, the internet has given each person a stage and an audience. People freely offer their opinions and advice, and its up to the reader to figure out the good from the bad, what will work in their environment and what will not, etc.

I'm a fan of more information, as opposed to less information. There is plenty of negative on forums, but there is also plenty of positive, and I believe they are a net positive.

But, as to the original post, it is better to be ankle deep in application than neck deep in knowledge.....so, spend more time doing it, and less time talking about doing it without having done it.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, as always, I'm a curious sort which direction was the sugar "curve" Of course you know that any curve has opposite ends

I have become diabetic and having problems dealing with the side affects.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

All things in moderation...

As other people have shared their histories, when I started bonsai all I had were books (few). I had no idea what I was doing. I only really started learning bonsai after I was able to join a bonsai society and work with experienced people.

Forums are not the same as real life. But they have advantages. I can hang out on a forum when it is 6am, raining, and I am sitting in my underwear drinking a cup of coffee, for example. Forums are great for sharing information like - hey don't miss XYZ show, or visit XYZ bonsai store, or I am selling my XYZ bonsai trees. Additionally, there are times when I don't really CARE about whether I am wiring a perfect apex on one of my trees and am really just looking for camaraderie. This forum has introduced me to some great people who have become real life friends. Now when my trees need styling, I have the opportunity to get together with real people and argue about it in person

If you like forums, great. If you don't like forums, great. You could say the same about any bonsai store, club or instructor. It is one more aspect of the hobby that you can adjust to get more or less pleasure and satisfaction. For me bonsai is not about the perfection of my trees, because none of them will ever be perfect. It is about the satisfaction I get from my trees and my journey with them. And forums allow me to share my journey - rather than fly solo.

 

[M. Frary]

I've only had internet for little over a year now. One of the first things I looked up was Bonsai. Living where I do with no clubs or teachers( I had no idea there was such a thing) I was astounded at what I found. Not only was there thousands of pictures but there were forums. I didn't know what that was either. A place where people asked questions about bonsai and were answered by people who knew.
Since joining this forum I have learned more in a year than over the past twenty. I also am a member on 3 other forums and will tell you. This one is the best. The people say what's on their mind and critique trees and don't slap each other on the back and say beautiful tree when really they are just sticks in pots.

 

[Nybonsai12]

This one is the best. The people say what's on their mind and critique trees and don't slap each other on the back and say beautiful tree when really they are just sticks in pots.

This is quite true. this occured on one of my first threads here. I thought I had got a nice tree only to be taught why it was less than favorable material. And after that I was advised on how to try and make it into better material. and after that on what to look for in quality material. and after that.....the list keeps going.

The forum is a great thing.

 

[drew33998]

Bonsai forums are to the actual art of bonsai, as improvisation is to music.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I have become diabetic and having problems dealing with the side affects.

I know people with uncontrolled diabetes. Some become very angry and verbally abusive when their sugars are out of wack. Before the diabetes, they'd have managed to keep their behavior under control.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

I've only had internet for little over a year now.

WOW................

That's the most shocking thing I've read in this thread.

There's more than one way to get a bonsai education. Forums can, and often are, a part of that, especially for our far flung and isolated friends. For my part I started on bonsai forums.... I quickly found in my heart the level of commitment that I wanted to give to this art and a teacher who gave me the bounty he could impart, for which he charged me only the sweat of my brow. Not every teacher costs a fortune for the fortunate few. For anyone not living next door it would cost upwards of 15K to get an education lasting 30 days from the rightly esteemed Boon. That's a lot of trees, when I have been able to have 100s of days of intensive one-on-one training for the cost of showing up. The cost for working with Ryan is even higher, AND you have to provide the wire you will be applying to HIS trees. lol (That part cracked me up.) The cost of either option is daunting for most.

I think that because I have been given freely the knowledge I have acquired, I give it just as freely. I would never have gotten anywhere without the nurturing of the forums however.... and for that I am beyond grateful. The friendships that the forums have provided me are the icing on the cake, for there are many I treasure dearly (Al, Vance, Rob, Dave etc...) whether or not I have met them.

For all that I have learned, there are still oceans of knowledge to be gained.... teachers to meet and to work with.... friends to be gained and cherished. May the forums always have a place in that experience.... and may the journey be rich for everyone, no matter how they approach it... or with whom.

My best,

Victrinia