Can We Talk About Mine?

[Shimpaku]

I sure could use some direction for this JBP.

I bought it about a year ago and reduced the height, trimmed branches not needed, and repotted.

I'd like to say it is doing well, but it is looking, well, weak and lanky.

I just don't know. I have been contemplating putting in the ground for a couple years. Can this be developed in a pot? I was thinking a tall pine with branches closer to the top, but I just don't know. I am not sure if I can work with the length of these branches and count on back budding?

I have done quite a bit of reading, but I'm just lost Maybe wiring to make it more compact and bring the branches in with some curves?

 

[stacy allen muse]

This will help...
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7685-Black-pine-development-pdf

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Honestly, it's not ready to train yet. If you can put it in the ground, it will thicken up and bud back nicely, it won't in a pot.
If you want to start training, you have to accept that the trunk will stay that size indefinitely, and you're relegated to some version of "literati" style. What do you want to do with it? Any finished design vision?

 

[Adair M]

What style do you have in mind? The closest to what it is now is Formal Upright. But, it's not perfectly straight. It's kinda leaning over to the right. And watch your internodes... about 2/3 the way up, there's a long internode. You don't want that. Maybe that spot is where the top of the tree should be, and the part above that is a sacrifice to gain girth.

The problems I see are: very little taper in the trunk, and the branches do not have much foliage close to the trunk.

And, since you're still "growing it out" it really doesn't need to be in a bonsai pot. Or, it could be put in a bigger pot. The soil around the outside of the pot looks ok, but the soil close to the trunk looks yucky. Too late to change it this year, but repot it to better soil next year.

Now, I'm going to assume you want to make a formal pine, then wire the trunk straight, and the branches straight out (maybe a little down). Don't have a straight trunk and curvy branches. Straight trunk, straight branches. Curvy trunk, curvy branches. But do wire the tertiary branches flat. This not only sets them in the right position, it exposes them to the sun. Which will stimulate back budding. Fertilize heavily.

You have an area about 5 branches up, where there appears to be a lot of branches forming a whirl. This is a bad situation. The whirl will fatten and make a "knob". Reverse taper. At any point on a tree, you want to have at most 2 branches at the same level. And they should not be "bar" branches. That is, on both sides of the tree. No 'left and right' or "front and back". You can have a "left and back" or "right and back" (90 degrees). So, you need to trim some branches to prevent reverse taper.

Did you cut a branch and leave about a 2 inch stub? Remove it completely with concave cutters.

Is that a weed growing in the pot? Remove it.

If you are going to be removing some branches from the "knobby area", how are you going to select the ones to remove? I suggest removing the heavier ones. Especially if they are heavier than the branches lower down. Generally speaking, you want to have heavier, thicker, longer branches down low, and lighter, thinner, shorter branches up top. So, if you have a heavy branch up top, it throws the balance off. So, up top, cut off a heavy branch, keep the smaller one.

On pines, use annealed copper wire. Aluminum wire just doesn't hold. You use less wire with copper, and it holds better.

And finally, know that it takes years to develop a pine. Don't be discouraged when you do all the things I listed, and it still looks like Charlie Brown's Christmas Tree. It will for a couple of years. And then, it starts to back bud, and fill in. It does take time.

Courage!

 

[Shimpaku]

Funny enough, yesterday I did some top pruning.

This is a pic I found that I want to emulate.

And here is my tree as it stands today.

I'm ok with the trunk size. I read Brian's article on his Pine. That was fantastic and really broke things down step by step. I won't wire it for a long time. I realize it is no where near that phase. But I guess the best thing I can do is to leave it alone. I took the weed out. I thought it was cool little plant. Guess not so thanks on that. The yucky looking stuff at the base is part of the root ball. The soil around it is new stuff from my repot--it is fast draining.

I really want to get back budding closer to the trunk. the branches are so long and I have very little back budding. How do I encourage that, is my BIG question?

 

[Smoke]

By being brave and treating the plant like it is expendable.

I wouldn't do anything in this condition. Just getting the plant healthy to be brave is going to take three seasons at least. To put those curves into this trunk will be very hard now. On top of that it lacks taper and that change near the top is going to be hard to deal with as well.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, if you want to emulate that pic you posted, you need to wire and bend the trunk while you still can! This will require large guage wire, and probably two or three wires laid side by side, and probably some mechanical advantage, such as a "trunk bender" tool or rebar.

You want buds closer to the trunk? You need to wire the branches down. Wiring not only shapes the tree, it "opens it up" for sunlight to reach the interior. It also stretches the cambium. Sunlight might penetrate those areas and stimulate the tree into back budding. You only get back buds from two places: 1) dormant adventitious buds. These are where the base of an old candle was. 2) Wherever there used to be a needle. These are called "needle buds".

Adventious buds are much more vigorous and likely to pop than needle buds.

The space on a candles (called the neck) between the base of the candle and where the first needles emerge has no buds. This is called the "internode". We strive to have the internodes as short as possible in JBP.

Why did you cut off the lowest branch? Lower branches build taper.

Why do you leave branches with stubs? When pruning pines, if you cut off all the green, you killed the branch. Might as well cut it all the way off.

Up top, where you cut off some at the "whirl", use concave pruners to cut out some of that knob that's developing. Either concave pruners or "spherical knob cutters" will gouge out some of the knob and trunk. Leaves a hollow, so that when it heals, it heals flatter, rather than bulging out.

And, finally, about the "yucky stuff" rootball. Commercial nurserymen do not use bonsai soil. They use a LOT of organic material in their potting soil. Peat moss and pine bark and stuff. They do this because it retains water, so they don't have to water as much, and it can tolerate long trips to the retailer in a hot truck, and the retailers like it because they don't have to water as much... But it doesn't grow good compact root systems with feeder roots close to the trunk that we like for bonsai. What you have is wet soil next to the trunk, and fast draining soil out near the rim. Next time you repot (next later winter/spring) try to remove 1/2 the old soil and replace with good bonsai soil. Don't wash it off with water, use a root hook and chopsticks to pick it out.

 

[Poink88]

By being brave and treating the plant like it is expendable.

Wise words (though tough to swallow). I would only add doing it wisely by having a plan and properly preparing the plant for the forthcoming onslaught.

 

[Poink88]

Why did you cut off the lowest branch? Lower branches build taper.

Why do you leave branches with stubs? When pruning pines, if you cut off all the green, you killed the branch. Might as well cut it all the way off.

I agree, you should have left the lowest (sacrificial) branches alone to help build taper. Re: leaving stubs, only reason I can see for it is jin/deadwood application.

 

[Adair M]

Dario,

His "model tree" had no jins.

Shimp:

Look at your two lowest (remaining) branches. See those itty bitty little branchlets with just one or two needles about an inch away from the trunk? THOSE are going to be your branch!

DON'T DO THIS NOW: But eventually, once those little branchlets get stronger, you'll want to cut back to them. Maybe in a year or two.

 

[Harunobu]

Ugh, he cut his lowest branch. I don't want to make you feel bad about cutting it, but low branches is what create taper. If you want a really good thick tapering trunk, if you grow the lowest 2 branches really fat then that will create good taper. Two is better than 1 because 1 really thick branch that does just as much as 2 may create reverse taper. Then the third branch can be the first branch on the final design. Fourth branch again sacrificial, etc.

That creates a trunk with really strong taper. Apparently you aren't looking for this in this tree, but if you didn't know you know now.

 

[Shimpaku]

This leaves me one conclusion

God D%$( Geesus Mother %($*@ Son of *$(#@ !!!!

I'm going to plant this one in the garden and head back to the Bonsai Farm to get a fat trunk JBP. I'm at my limit for trees, so hopefully I can pull this off and she won't ask questions. If she does, I will say it's spring swelling or something.

Thanks for the input. I asked for it.

 

[Smoke]

This leaves me one conclusion

God D%$( Geesus Mother %($*@ Son of *$(#@ !!!!

Funniest thing I have seen on the forum in a long time

 

[Smoke]

OK, You seem to be in the game here and discearn when you have maybe made no so prudent of purchase. That is half the game my friend. Learning that sooner than later is a helluva lot better than spending 500.00 of fifty crappy trees. If your heart is to have a black pine then are some things you should know that can help you in your quest. Buy the best material you can find. If you are looking for a tree in the 14 to 20 inch tall range then be prepared to spend 125.00 to 250.00 dollars. Smaller trees do not necessarily mean less money since good shohin black pines can be more expensive than larger counterparts.

Look for tapered trunks, low branches, no matter how ugly (they serve a purpose) and many branches on the trunk to choose from. Having choices is better than what you had since you had no choices to make that tree better.

Some have commented about opening up a canopy to reciev sunlight to induce back budding , and while that is true, those inner sufaces need exposure to air and sunlight, they also need a stimulator to auxinate*. Removing branches and opening up a canopy will require pruning back to two pairs of needles to stimulate buds. They will come, then you can ramify.

More to come, my hair cutter just came over......


* My new word, copyright reserved, Al Keppler

 

[Harunobu]

If you can buy young trees with a lot of low branches then that still works but it will take maybe 10 to 20 years. At some point a pine is of such an age that often the lower branches have gotten weaker and died. Such a tree will generally be useless.
Then we get in an area where trees were grown with bonsai in mind and have good age and good trunks already. But those are going to be worth the 5 to 10 years of time that was spend on them.

Dwarf cultivar will be different and often be more basally dominant and maybe multi trunked. But they are often grafted and slow growing.


It is possible to get close to the tree you showed with the tree you have right now. But there are some crucial differences. The example tree has better movement, seems to have better nebari, and a bit of taper. Even if you style yours just as the example one, it won't be as good.
Another flaw in your tree is where it was chopped. The transition is too big. You want to have a sacrificial branch on your thinner upper part of the trunk and try to have it taper more gently.

Pines are very hard to design. Requires a lot of foresight. Both how to get the needles into proper foliage pads and how to manage the sacrificial branches and final branches on material you grow out over a longer period of time are hard and can be called counter intuitive.

 

[Adair M]

Shimp...

Slow down! Please don't rush over to the shop and snag the next JBP you see. I'm not trying to stop the shop from making a sale, I'm wanting you to make a wise purchase!

You need to think about what you want your JBP to look like. What style? How tall? Sure, you want the best material you can get, but how do you figure out what that is?

Picking pine stock is MUCH more difficult than almost any other type of material. Maples grow fast, bud back easily, and if you mess up, you can just chop everything off and start over. Not so with pines.

Just for the educational value, go look at the JBP pines for sale on ebay. Search for "Black Pine Bonsai". You will see everything from $15 junk to $3,500 imports. There is not a perfect tree listed. Every tree will have issues. Some "masterpieces" have horrible nebari, or ungodly poorly wired trunks. Some will have good trunks and bad branches. Some will have well developed branches, and really skinny trunks. Take a look at the imports that Brussel's is selling. Those are the $2,000 and up trees. These have been sitting in quarantine for two years. They haven't been worked during this time, just watered. They're getting leggy because they're overwatered, haven't been candled, etc. But, they generally have decent trunks and nebari. I'm not suggesting that you buy one of those, but I want you to see that a trunk like that is your goal, and when you look at less expensive stock, can you see a way to "get there from here".

Know also that those $2000 imports are also 40 to 50 years old.

Once you've looked at those, and other trees others are selling, then go look at Gregory Beach Bonsai. (Google it.) Don has some decent JBP for $75. Look at those, and see if you can think yyou can "get there from here" with any of those. His trees usually have decent trunks and beginnings of decent nebari.

Now, when you go to the local bonsai shop, you will have an idea of what you can get.

By the way, 90% of the value of ANY bonsai is in the lower trunk and nebari. Don't be tricked into thinking the value is in the branches and foliage. You can regrow that. Look at the nebari. Look at the lower trunk. Reject any material that has reverse taper on any part of the trunk you want to keep.

Oh, your existing JBP? Before you "stick it in the ground" do something to give it some character. Wire the trunk. Or Chop it (below the whirl). Or Plant it at an angle so the new leaders aren't just growing straight up. To be honest, I wouldn't do this until next spring when you could open up the rootball and spread out the roots so that they'll grow out in a radial direction. Plant it on top of a tile so the roots can't go down, they have to go "out". You can still learn from that pine!

 

[Adair M]

Shimp,

Check this blog out for inspiration:

http://bonsaitonight.com/2012/04/17/from-landscape-tree-to-bonsai/

And just to show you that "I practice what I preach", I'm attaching a couple of photos of a similar project I'm starting. I figure 10 years from now I'll have a "finshed" bonsai. I got mine from a bonsai shop who had Japanese Garden Trees for sale, and I paid $300.

 

[treebeard55]

...

I'd like to say it is doing well, but it is looking, well, weak and lanky.

...

Shimp, I really can't be sure from the pic of your tree's health, so take this just as an idea to be considered. I have a single JBP that I used to overwinter with my yews, ponderosas, and other hardy trees. It would struggle all the next season: buds and candles would develop late, foliage stay sparse, needles would be too light a shade of green, and growth would be minimal, all summer.

Two years ago I tried overwintering it in our unheated mudroom, which generally stays 10 degrees F warmer than the outside on a winter nite. Bam! Problem solved. Now it grows as if it alone is responsible for its species' reputation for vigor!

You don't give your climate zone, and I know PA has more than one. But possibly a milder winter for this tree would help.

You decide, of course: you're the one there.

 

[Shimpaku]

Shimp...

Slow down! Please don't rush over to the shop and snag the next JBP you see.

I understand the helpful sentiment, but relax. I appreciate your concern for my wallet.

It cost me $50 and was a first JBP that is now living in my garden; no worse for wear nor better off from where it was. I realize money buys time and I will pay the dough to get the material that is heading in the right direction sooner. Frankly, a 10-20 year project is not the time frame I'm looking for. I would like something that can be enjoyed a bit sooner and I realize it will cost me. I will shop, consider, and burn the card.

--Will report back with new acquisition.

 

[Adair M]

Well, I certainly don't mind you going out and spending big bucks on a really nice tree, that's great if you can afford it. I'm more concerned that you have the knowledge on how to keep/maintain/improve it. I'm not trying to insult you, we were all once beginners. I've killed my fair share. Better to learn on the cheap stuff.

JBP are my favorite bonsai. Because they are so challenging: The best have big fat trunks, with lots of taper. Hard to get both. The best have low branches, with folliage close to the trunk. Hard to get with fat trunks. THe best have good movement and no scars. Again, hard to get. THe best have great rammification, and short needles. Once you get great rammification, the short needles part is easy. The best have short internodes. This is a subset of great ramification. THe best have great bark. This comes with time. There is no other way.

So, JBP are full of challenges. When I see a great JBP, not only do I see a great tree, I also see all the years of consistent hard work it took to produce that piece of living art.

Cheers!