Comparing Painting and Bonsai

[emk]

It was more entertaining during the summer months less drivel!!

That's what I've got painted on my truck "DRIVEL DELIVERY SERVICE".

 

[Anonymous User]

I didn't say you couldn't I said your opinion weighed as equally as anyone elses. Don't talk down to me, you have shown you have nothing superior to me when it comes to bonsai. When you are as superior as Walter I will surly entertain that thought. Untill then you ruin more threads than you add to them.

Find me a thread where your later involvment in it did not degrade the thread into a pissing match.

Al,

Your panties are in a knot and you only have yourself to blame.

My opinions on this thread are supported with sources and references, yours, on the other hand, are the typical Al Keppler "because I said so" variety that you somehow feel are just as valid.

The fact is Al, you jumped into this thread swinging as usual, and as usual, you offered nothing but unsupported opinion. In fact, the vast majority of your words here (as anyone can see) are personal, off topic, and attempts to incite with insults, name calling, and a whole lot of chest pounding.

It is also quite easy for anyone to look at this forum over the last few months, little if any action at all. I came in and posted and then, no surprise, you and Chris came rushing back to this forum after no involvement to speak of for months, only to, no surprise here either, to jump in on discussions which I was in and start attacking. This pattern of behavior from you two is well known, so much so that (as in the link I gave earlier) the real experienced artists have commented on it, one of you have even been called disturbed because of it.

What is it Al, jealousy? Envy? Love unreturned? What ever it is, get over it, seek help, pick up a hobby, maybe bonsai? But get over it.

Meanwhile, either stay on topic, discuss the subject, not me, support your opinions, admit your wrong......man up Al.

As to the threads I'm involved in that don't turn into a pissing match.....

How about hundreds, if not thousands of examples?

http://artofbonsai.org/index.php

http://www.knowledgeofbonsai.org/

http://forums.bonsaisite.com/

http://internetbonsaiclub.org/

You see this is the only forum I participate in where your crap is tolerated, on other forums such off topic personal attacks would get you banned quicker than an endangered duck. Some of us discuss to advance our knowledge, others I guess just disrupt, condemn, criticize, and complain......



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

I am sure that the people who painted literati trees on canvas or whatever took thier inspiration from nature . They didn't invent literati. So they painted something that they saw in nature and a person with a little tree styled a tree after something he saw on canvas. In the mean while, another tree guy was styling trees based off what he saw in nature.

I am sure that someones painting inspired someone somewhere to make a literati bonsai, but to say that the art of painting is responsible for literati bonsai is a far fetch.

Most histories of bonsai and literati paintings that I have read put the painting before the style of bonsai, which could very well be accurate because we know that early Penjing often were designed to imitate famous paintings as well as natural scenes.

I am with everyone else, I don't see that you can compare a 2d object with a 3d object, let alone one that is a living breathing thing that needs attention daily to maintain it.

I also agree. What John referred to in his first post here was a discussion in another thread about cookie cutter bonsai. We used the art of painting as an example, such as someone painting a copy of a already recognized piece of art. The question was asked if this copy would then automatically be art as well. No one compared the techniques of the two art forms together, nor did anyone say that bonsai design is like painting. I believe the whole discussion was taken out of context.

Cookie cutter houses were also mentioned, yet no one suggested that building a house was anything like designing a bonsai.

There is no doubt that bonsai is unlike any other art form, mainly because of the constantly changing nature of the material. However, even though the material is changing every day, basic artistic principles still apply and still must be considered in order for the piece to be successful artistically. These artistic principles can be found in all forms of art and much can be gleaned by studying such.

As I stated earlier, I think that if you style a good bonsai then art is a by product of a good bonsai. But you don't sit down to style a tree with an art manual or look at a tree and think art. You look at a tree and style a tree based on each tree.

I agree. Would you also agree that when we sit down to style a tree that we have artistic principles in mind? Even if only in the guidelines taught to us?



Will

 

[Rusty Harris]

I think I finally understand this bonsai thing, and how paintings of world renowned art can help me improve my bonsai! Simple, yet brilliant!

 

[Anonymous User]

I think I finally understand this bonsai thing, and how paintings of world renowned art can help me improve my bonsai! Simple, yet brilliant!

Finally, somebody gets it!


Funny stuff Rusty, thanks for the laugh.




Will

 

[Smoke]

Al puts his tail between his legs and scampers off like a gutter rat...secure in the fact that I can do bonsai and he can't which pissis him off to no end.

Later Will I have nothing more to say. I know when I'm licked.

I will scamper back to bonsaiTalk where I can be a loser in peace.

BTW, if you still need help fixing that demo tree the offer still stands.

 

[Anonymous User]

Al puts his tail between his legs and scampers off like a gutter rat...secure in the fact that I can do bonsai and he can't which pissis him off to no end.

Later Will I have nothing more to say. I know when I'm licked.

I will scamper back to bonsaiTalk where I can be a loser in peace.

Thanks for your opinions, Al. I'll take them at their full worth.

Try to stay on topic, wherever you go....



Will

 

[Attila Soos]

Ok, since this fight is over, and Al is down and can't get up...

What is the verdict: can we compare bonsai with painting, or not? I need to know the answer from any of the experts here, because I don't want to waste my time doing such comparisons, if I am not supposed to.

 

[JasonG]

I think we are free to think what we want and compare anything to anything. That is our right BUT we don't have to see it the same as others see it. I don't have to agree with Will or Al or Chris, etc...or I can choose to agree with them if that is how I see things. In this case I find it hard to agree.

I don't agree that painting and bonsai should be in the same sentence, sure maybe 1000 yrs ago that was an inspiration for a style of bonsai. But things have evolved, we have progressed and I just don't see it as an apple to apple comparison.

So, here is where I end up with the topic..... You don't have to be an art scholar to create masterpiece bonsai, you don't have to know how to paint, sculpt or even know much about either one of them. If you create beautiful bonsai then everything else will fall into place as a by product of making beautiful bonsai.

I have made beautiful bonsai and have been told so by several visiting masters, but the only thing I happen to know about painting (or art in general) is they can be very expensive and they hang on walls. My lack of artistic knowledge doesn't stop me or get in the way of creating beautiful bonsai.

Maybe my lack of artistic book smarts should put me in the moron thread, haha

Jason

 

[Attila Soos]

I think we are free to think what we want and compare anything to anything. That is our right BUT we don't have to see it the same as others see it. I don't have to agree with Will or Al or Chris, etc...or I can choose to agree with them if that is how I see things. In this case I find it hard to agree.

I don't agree that painting and bonsai should be in the same sentence, sure maybe 1000 yrs ago that was an inspiration for a style of bonsai. But things have evolved, we have progressed and I just don't see it as an apple to apple comparison.

So, here is where I end up with the topic..... You don't have to be an art scholar to create masterpiece bonsai, you don't have to know how to paint, sculpt or even know much about either one of them. If you create beautiful bonsai then everything else will fall into place as a by product of making beautiful bonsai.

I have made beautiful bonsai and have been told so by several visiting masters, but the only thing I happen to know about painting (or art in general) is they can be very expensive and they hang on walls. My lack of artistic knowledge doesn't stop me or get in the way of creating beautiful bonsai.

Maybe my lack of artistic book smarts should put me in the moron thread, haha

Jason

Fair enough. No need to do such a comparison.
It's really up to the individual. Kimura, for instance, denied that he studies any other art form than bonsai. He is doing well without any comparing.

On the other hand, it is not fair to condemn such a comparison either. I can see the differences, as well as the similarities. I use the similarities, to improve my skills, and I am aware that there are differences and limitations that should be respected as well.

This is a personal journey, there is more than one way of doing it. It all depends on our individual inclinations.

I don't like when I am told how should I look at things. So, John, to answer your question, I don't appreciate if you tell me to stop looking for similarities in various arts. It's a pleasure that I reserve for myself. But I agree with you, that it is not a requirement, in order to create good bonsai.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I believe all one really needs is imagination...

 

[Attila Soos]

I believe all one really needs is imagination...

That's it, imagination. And if you love trees, it won't be long before you come up with something interesting to show.

"All we need is love..", really.

 

[Anonymous User]

IYou don't have to be an art scholar to create masterpiece bonsai, you don't have to know how to paint, sculpt or even know much about either one of them.

Good points Jason.

I think we can also agree that being an art scholar, or knowing how to paint, scupt, or knowing about such things doesn't prevent one from creating masterpiece bonsai either.



Will

 

[Rusty Harris]

Finally, somebody gets it!


Funny stuff Rusty, thanks for the laugh.




Will

No, thank you.