Frustrated with bonsai ability

[tmmason10]

While I also seek trees with better potential, I chose to have a big collection to have more to practice on. My collection ranges from; seedlings, small cuttings, box store bought, mallsai, and urban yamadori/collected. I think all of them offer different learning opportunities.

I actually fancy my "stumps" since they offer the most challenge.

Only group missing from my collection is properly "finished" bonsai. LOL

There are multiple takes to solving a problem but what is right is what works for the individual. In this case, sounds like he wasn't happy with too many cuttings, seedlings and so on, so to reinvigorate his take on bonsai I think the best way is to get more advanced material to bring the excitement back.

There's no right or wrong way, your way works for you and that's what matters.

 

[remist17]

thank you all for the words of encourgement and recomendations for reading material.
I will place a order on amazon tonight assuming I can find the books on there.

Anyone in the south central PA region Northern MD region willing to tutor me??

 

[Vance Wood]

Bonsai is not so easy as many would like to tell you. The basics are pretty easily memorized but they are best learned through exposure and practice. This takes time. Bonsai also depends on a quantity of technical and more or less precise operations that are best learned through exposure and practice.

Having a mentor to help you through some of this stuff helps a great deal but you can do it your self as long as you don't let yourself get stressed out or frustrated, BUT; as many things in bonsai they take time. If you start with a decent piece of raw material and you have a bit of an artistic eye you are still looking at five years.

Did I mention that bonsai is also an art? It takes time to develop that ability. Once you get developed and more aware of what's going on you will discover that there are bonsai artists out there that have Rembrandt abilities and then there are the rest of us. Lastly; bonsai is an horticultural practice where what you do, when you do it, and to what extreme you can take what ever it is you want ----are dictated by the laws of nature. You will also find that sometimes you can do things most people will tell you that you cannot.

 

[marcosolo]

and you are better why????

He was mean to OG poster, like overly mean with no provocation...Kid wasn't conceded or strident and he just slapped him down with unmerciful indifference.....At least when I'm mean it's because somebody stoked that fire......(And I love text wars).....lol

 

[Ron Dennis]

Your frustration is probably shared by many. Interestingly, I am always questioning myself and my ability. However, I recently went to a workshop and surprised myself when I realized I knew a lot more than I thought. In fact, I was disappointed with the instruction as being "old".

One thing I have done and suggest to you is seek out those with abilities you admire. It is so true you learn from those better than you. I have found while some can be "bonsai snobs", the really talented ones are eager to share particularly when they see you really trying to learn and grow in your ability. I have made friends in person and online whom I will never be in their league but all of them have given me much help and encouragement.

The big question I ask you is do you enjoy the time you spend in bonsai? If so, keep on keeping on.

 

[amkhalid]

Hi Remist,

Most of us on this forum are addicted to bonsai like crack, and couldn't stop doing it if we wanted to. If you are one of those people, it doesn't matter where your artistic talent lies right now. You will continue doing bonsai because you have to. And you will get better as you immerse yourself in it... you will start to see things you didn't see before.

As others have said in this thread, it doesn't matter if you are producing world class bonsai - as long as you are having fun doing it. If you are passionate about it, your failures should be motivating you to work harder (finding a mentor is an excellent suggestion from October). As far as I know the bonsai scene in PA is pretty live, so that shouldn't be too hard.

That being said, at times I hate this bloody hobby, but I just can't stop doing it. It can be a pain in the ass, but it is also completely unique from other arts and crafts, which makes it freaking awesome.

 

[Stan Kengai]

remist, I remember those feelings of not knowing what to do with a tree. I think there are 2 things at play here. The first is having too little experience. I know it's kind of like the chicken or egg dilemma. How do you know what to do without having the experience? And how do you gain the experience without doing it? The only thing I can offer here is to keep at it, as others have said. Search on line or in books to find trees that appeal to you. Here is a good place if you like shohin (click the pics at the bottom of the page). And then ask yourself "why does this appeal to me, what factors make this a good tree, how can I create a tree like this, and what would I do to make this tree better?" Eventually, something will click inside your brain, and you'll have a new understanding and appreciation for the art of bonsai. Eventually, you'll be able to look at a tree and the tree will tell you the direction you should style it. In fact, I won't buy material anymore unless it tells me how to style it.

Which leads me to the other thing that's probably at play here, which is starting with immature or poor material. Don't worry about that. Most people do it, and it's a good way to learn, not only horticulture and technique, but also what makes good starting material. I personally, don't know anyone who still has any of the first 5 or 10 bonsai they ever made.

 

[Paradox]

I am in my 3rd summer of bonsai Remist and I feel your pain. Ive been frustrated with the "what the heck do I do with this thing" as well.. The thing to remember is that learning bonsai takes time. 3 years really is a drop of water in the lake of time.
Patience is the first and I think one of the most important lessons that bonsai teaches us.

Learning to see the tree can take a long time to develop. My suggestion is to look at as many "finished" trees as you can on the internet and, if possible in person. Really look at them, see the detail and see what makes them what they are.

Always keep in mind the characteristics that people most look for in trees: good nebari, nice thick trunk, good taper, no reverse taper, good movement, fine branching. Keep those things in mind and sooner or later, you will begin to be able to see potential in trees.

Then you have to learn how to bring out that potential. This can also take a long time because trees dont generally move fast, they move in cycles of months and years.

Find a good group, read and reread (I have reread most, if not all of my books many times) to get things to sink in. Actually doing it and seeing the result makes it stick.

Get some trees and experiment. I have about 20 trees. A few of them would be considered good pre-bonsai, but most are pre-bonsai wannabes. They were cheap material that I purchased to learn with. I can experiment on them and if they die, its not a huge loss. If they live, they wont be show-stoppers, but if they make me happy thats all that matters.
Yes I have killed some trees. A couple of them made me sad when I realized they were lost causes, but thats the price we pay to learn this craft.

Learn how to keep things alive first and foremost. The only way to do that is to do it. Learn about the timing of things. This is different for every species you have. Keep in mind your local weather. This year was different than last year. You have to learn to adjust accordingly.

I have trees now that Ive kept alive for over 2 years. While that is not a very long time tree-wise, it is giving me greater confidence to get better material. Ive learned about repotting from them by doing it. Now I am learning about pruning, decandling, ramification etc, etc.

One step at a time my friend, one step at a time. Meanwhile, enjoy the ride.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

thank you all for the words of encourgement and recomendations for reading material.
I will place a order on amazon tonight assuming I can find the books on there.

Anyone in the south central PA region Northern MD region willing to tutor me??

Isn't Jim Doyle's Nature's Way nursery in Harrisburg?

Also in PA, Chase Rosade is in New Hope, Michael Persiano is maybe in NJ now, was in PA. Doug Paul owns the Kennett Collection somewhere up there. If not a learning resource, certainly among the best bonsai in the country are there. Probably others I'm missing...

Hang in there, we all kill them. Sometmes it feels like a battle of attrition!

 

[pwk5017]

I whole-heartedly agree with paradox. I have been interested in bonsai since I was about 12-13. Thats when I bought my first with report card money. I obviously didnt have the money or commitment to get into when I was that young, but it was always in the back of my mind. Then, I turned 18 and decided to get serious again. This hobby takes so much time. You need to do things to learn, and you sometimes dont see the results of what you did until a year or two passes! So, you are learning about stuff you did 2 years ago by observing what is happening now. It takes time! Now, I have always been creative, and have an eye for things(im an architect), so the design stuff came easily. I am constantly looking at top quality trees, and I have been consistently doing this for the last 5ish years. Im 25 now, and I would say I didnt really "get it" until I was about 23ish. 5 years of decent involvement in the hobby. Even now, I have plenty to learn about the next level of refinement, and how to take a good tree and make it great. Im constantly working on seedlings, 5+ year old trees in development, a few bits of regular big box/nursery stock, bonsai nursery stock, and a few trees that I purchased as "finished". Name a bonsai book and I have probably read it. Bjorn and Owen's bonsai of japan videos are great. Boon's videos for more specifics techniques. If you want to improve, then get serious and really put the time and effort in. For me, and others, we love it so much that we just want to keep watching, reading, observing, doing, learning, and growing! That is what you need to do.

 

[bonsaibp]

I would suggest you stop worrying so much about the end result right now and try to enjoy the process. Stick with it and you'll find your way if you really want to.
Heck I own a bonsai nursery, have been doing this for decades and still kill trees on occasion.

 

[wireme]

Keep looking at trees, not just bonsai but real mature trees. There's a pine tree down the road from me with an old broken cascading branch, I'd like to incorporate that into a bonsai. A maple in the next ally with a cool winding branch that balances the leaning tree nicely, I'd like to grow a tree like that someday. The classic dense cone of foliage on an old balsam fir, the flat top of an ancient ponderosa etc.... It's one of the beneficial effects of being a bonsai addict, one cannot stop appreciating beautiful trees in your surroundings. Plenty of inspiration out there if you just keep your eyes open.

 

[remist17]

thanks again all. I havent lost my need to work on these trees, just a little lost on the design. Went out and looked at the trees again last night. I decided to get rid off the trees that will never be anything or not at this point (nursery "finds") and just received a hornbeam from evergreen gardenworks. I am also going to order another one this year from Brent.

My goal is to get some good material and keep some of the original stuff but drop my numbers down so I can concentrate on a few.

 

[fourteener]

thanks again all. I havent lost my need to work on these trees, just a little lost on the design. Went out and looked at the trees again last night. I decided to get rid off the trees that will never be anything or not at this point (nursery "finds") and just received a hornbeam from evergreen gardenworks. I am also going to order another one this year from Brent.

My goal is to get some good material and keep some of the original stuff but drop my numbers down so I can concentrate on a few.

I still have trees on my benches that have no design and I have no idea what to do with them. I have started attending master's workshops. The trees I take there are the ones that I feel have good potential but I can't figure out how to execute it. They spend 5 minutes and whip it into shape.

After you see a pro do it a few times, you see how they went from before to after, and it makes more sense. Bonsai is a hobby of horticulture and design. To be really good at it you have to figure out both. One might be more natural to you than the other.

I encourage people to not only look at good bonsai, but scroll through the pictures on ebay. Figure out what makes one tree catch your eye and hundreds of other be just ho-hum.

 

[Adair M]

LOL!!! I've been doing bonsai for 42 years, and I still have trouble "seeing the tree" in raw stock!

I bought an incredible JBP starter material, and thought I had determined the front. Boon saw it, and rotated it around 30 degrees and declared that the front. But, it didn't have branches "where they are supposed to be". No problem, graft them on! (No problem for Boon! LOL!!)

But it was an epiphany.

Start with a great trunk. You can grow branches where you want them. It's just a matter of learning the appropriate techniques.

Today is a great time to be learning bonsai. For the first time in history, we have young bonsai artists returning from apprenticeships in Japan. Where they did bonsai 24/7/365 for years. Think Boon, Ryan Neil, Peter Tea, Owen Reich, etc. You can learn in an hour or two with these guys enough to propel you thru several years of great improvement in your trees.

 

[jk_lewis]

My goal is to get some good material and keep some of the original stuff but drop my numbers down so I can concentrate on a few.

GOOD! Many beginners get as many trees as possible, then are able to do none of them justice. (You know who you are )

Too many trees is almost as bad as having just one or two.

(Note that I am NOT a beginner, but now, considering my age and health, I have too many trees also, and I am not doing most of them justice. )

 

[Poink88]

Some people, because of their age and experience, believe they know everything but in reality know little. (You know who you are )

It is wise to enjoy the journey...at your own (and your tree's) pace and not race with anyone. Don't slow down for others (too many advocate this) as well. Bonsai is slow by itself already, no need to slow it down further.

It is a hobby and accept the fact that some are gifted with the artistic talent that most of us do not have. We can hone the craftsmanship side (by practice & doing) but will only take us so far. Did I say practice? Yeah, lots of it and sadly you can't have lots of practice with few trees (simple math-sorry). Giving up is the worst attitude (be it the hobby or on a particular tree), take everything as a challenge and believe it can be improved. The only question is how.

Standard vary by person, location, exposure, experience, etc. One may take pride of his/her work not knowing it is "trash" compared to another's. I enjoy my work and admire them in their infancy, though it is "trash" compared to any exhibition trees. I have no problem taking them as they are, twigs and stumps alike. I have no illusions to produce a world class bonsai either but in my eyes, my trees (like my kids, mom, etc.) are great.

Having fun and pride of my trees is what matters (illusion or not). I hope you feel the same soon.

 

[Zach Smith]

thanks again all. I havent lost my need to work on these trees, just a little lost on the design. Went out and looked at the trees again last night. I decided to get rid off the trees that will never be anything or not at this point (nursery "finds") and just received a hornbeam from evergreen gardenworks. I am also going to order another one this year from Brent.

My goal is to get some good material and keep some of the original stuff but drop my numbers down so I can concentrate on a few.

If you have less than 50 trees at this point and are already winnowing out ones that will never be anything, you may want to reconsider. First of all, if you know those trees will never be anything then you must know more about bonsai styling than your first post would indicate!

What I always suggest to beginners is to get lots of trees (up to about 50), as this enables you to practice and kill to your heart's content. You can collect or buy some nice stuff, but it's best not to spend too much because you'll feel the pain more when one of them croaks. But if you collect of buy less than stellar material, you can try things you never would on really good stuff. Plus it's harder to annoy 50 trees than five. Bonsai is all about doing. If you have five trees on your bench and you're in the midst of the growing season, you're likely to wear those five trees out doing things to them. It's natural to be uncertain when you start out, so you wire and position a branch one day, look at it the next and decide the branch is in the wrong spot, same thing the next day and so on. But with a few dozen or more, you'll try some things and here and there spot a design element that clicks with you. That's what you want. Over time seeing and doing these becomes second nature.

For what it's worth.

Zach

 

[Dave Leppo]

What town do you live in/close to?

 

[remist17]

Dave;
Live in Hanover PA

everyone makes alot of sense. I removed some maples that will never reduce in leaf size. I am not sure what type they are but not typical bonsai tree material. I got some of these from my parents house and one is a crimsom maple (dark purple) and the leaves are almost 6" with really long node spaces.
I also put some red oaks back in the ground along with some box woods that really just didnt happen.