RichKid
Shohin
LOL. Yeah I know, there's just no way around it! LOL They are very good looking pots that you've made there though. And practical too with the air pruning mesh.
Grow boxes
- Thread starter RichKid
- Start date
LOL. Yeah I know, there's just no way around it! LOL They are very good looking pots that you've made there though. And practical too with the air pruning mesh.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thats more than obvious.I meant why would they be so shocked that americans can make ceramic pots, just as good, if not better, than japanese or chinese pots.
Now you are shifting subject.
Re: ceramics, we have people advancing on these already...most are not there yet IMHO but more people are developing their skills and art as we speak. Best thing we can do is support them and buy their wares.
Check Ryan Neil's Bonsai Mirai, last I checked, he has a section devoted to American bonsai potters.
RichKid
Shohin
Now you are shifting subject.
Re: ceramics, we have people advancing on these already...most are not there yet IMHO but more people are developing their skills and art as we speak. Best thing we can do is support them and buy their wares.
Check Ryan Neil's Bonsai Mirai, last I checked, he has a section devoted to American bonsai potters.
If you read the rest of the post you quoted you would clearly see I had been referring to ceramics the whole time. But thats neither here nor there. I will definitely check the ryan neil page. I bet there is someone out there in the U.S. right now who is making ceramic kittens and such, who has never considered making a bonsai pot, who could blow a lot of the foreign competition out of the water. I never underestimate Americans.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Some of them are. Sara Raynor, Dale Chacoy, and at least three or four others whose names escape me right now. It's not shocking or unbelievable; my post was in reaction to a previous post where the decline of the pottery market was suggested.
RichKid
Shohin
Simple misunderstanding of the written word. I agree with both you and Poink, we have absolutely no worry that the ceramic pot will disappear. Ever. LOL Unless we all disappear along with it. The egyptians used earthenware over 3000 years ago, and countless civilizations before them. I think earthenware, stoneware, ceramics, whatever we want to call it is here to stay. Crate and Barrel sells wooden spoons bowls plates and forks, but how many peoples houses have you actually seen them in? Besides, as a grow box the wood looks cool, but nothing beats a trained tree in a beautiful matching ceramic pot. IMO
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Okay can you please explain what I am missing? I read this and I see it saying wooden bonsai pot. This started my disbelief NOT American's capability to make nice ceramic pots.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The real problem here is in the firing of the raw pots. If they are not fired at a cone 7 or higher (I think that figure is correct) the pot will not last more than a couple of years.
RichKid
Shohin
Yeah but I replied to Vance, not you, n the guy you're quoting is not me. If you read the rest of MY post that u quoted the first line from you will see I was referring to ceramics.
RichKid
Shohin
I dont doubt the validity of your statement one bit. I'm not extremely familiar w ceramic processes except for the pots I made glazed and fired in high school art class! But i do think these are all technicalities Americans will figure out n solve. Are Sara and Dale firing at that level?
PaulH
Omono
fourteener
Omono
There is a difference between earthenware and stoneware. It's not simply about the cone firing, it's also about the starting material. For those of us who live in the frozen north we know all too well about the absolute need for stoneware. Stoneware is fired to cone 9-10 and it is completely vitrified (non-porous). Meaning water will never get into the pot, therefore never freeze, therefore not break in freezing temps.
Sara Rayner, Dale CaChoy and others make stoneware.
I have potter friends that I try to talk into doing bonsai pottery. There is a lot more money to be made. I see them make $10 dollar coffee mugs, when the same amount of material would make a $30 bonsai pot. They don't seem to believe me.
PaulH
Omono
Folks, just be aware that some of these containers/boxes/crates (produce, fruits, bread, soda, milk, etc.) are not trash that you can just pick up. Most are set at the back of stores for pick-up by the supplier...not for disposal. Kindly ask before you take any (even if it is seating next to the dumpster).
Just a friendly reminder.
No worries. The produce store owner traded me the boxes in exchange for use of my forklift.
Your point is good though. I catch people stealing pallets which I pay a deposit on from back of my store all the time.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Yes--------!
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Actually,
I believe it is more like this -
Eathernware - more than 8% porous.
Stoneware somewhere between 5 to 3 % porous
Porcelain less than 1% porous.
Additionally you can make earthenware behave like stoneware once you know what to add, and get lower firing temperatures as well. Body formulas can go to cone 08 [ say 943 deg,C ] if need be.
A great deal has changed since the 1930's.
The Ancient Chinese got around the porous problem by not allowing the pot/soil to freeze in winter by using straw and/or an unheated room.
So it is possible to have porous pots, which are considered better for growing bonsai in. Stoneware is a modern convenience and something unknowing folk have been fed as being better.
Check, real Yi Xing pottery, used for teapots, they breathe. That is the specialty of Yi Xing clay,
the teapot absorbs the tea with time. Same clay is used to make bonsai pot in Yi Xing.hmm.
Potters don't always like to let you know that they are lousy at handbuilding--sshhh.
Additionally, that pounded Yi Xing clay is far more dense and durable, than wheel thrown wares and wheel thrown deformed round wares made into ovals.
Remember the more potters you encourage into bonsai pot manufacturering, the lower the payment for the pot will go.
Supply and demand rules.
Good Evening.
Anthony
I believe it is more like this -
Eathernware - more than 8% porous.
Stoneware somewhere between 5 to 3 % porous
Porcelain less than 1% porous.
Additionally you can make earthenware behave like stoneware once you know what to add, and get lower firing temperatures as well. Body formulas can go to cone 08 [ say 943 deg,C ] if need be.
A great deal has changed since the 1930's.
The Ancient Chinese got around the porous problem by not allowing the pot/soil to freeze in winter by using straw and/or an unheated room.
So it is possible to have porous pots, which are considered better for growing bonsai in. Stoneware is a modern convenience and something unknowing folk have been fed as being better.
Check, real Yi Xing pottery, used for teapots, they breathe. That is the specialty of Yi Xing clay,
the teapot absorbs the tea with time. Same clay is used to make bonsai pot in Yi Xing.hmm.
Potters don't always like to let you know that they are lousy at handbuilding--sshhh.
Additionally, that pounded Yi Xing clay is far more dense and durable, than wheel thrown wares and wheel thrown deformed round wares made into ovals.
Remember the more potters you encourage into bonsai pot manufacturering, the lower the payment for the pot will go.
Supply and demand rules.
Good Evening.
Anthony
subnet_rx
Mame
Let me start this post by saying I'm just wanting to have a discussion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and by explaining why I'm wrong, maybe I'll learn more about proper bonsai display.
Obviously, just switching the material the pot is made of will present some disadvantages, but if processes and techniques are modified to fit the new material, it may be more viable. I'm not saying that every pot would be made of wood, but it would be great if wood pots were accepted as competition worthy.
The pot certainly wouldn't last as long as a ceramic pot, but given the availability and ease of production, I think it could mitigate the downside that the lifetime of the pot presents. When you start thinking in terms of quality wooden pots, it would be much easier for almost anyone to find someone in their area that could built the pot given the specifications. This would also mean the pot would be cheaper and therefore easily replaceable. It would open up avenues for the artist to now be more involved in what the pot looks like to make a one of kind pot to fit the feeling and image that the artist is going for. It may even make pot-making to be in the range of more artists themselves. And instead of paying large sums of money for this one of a kind pot, it's within range to now even replicate this pot many times over.
I realize it's a radical idea, and I didn't think that anyone would latch on to it, but I thought it was worth throwing out there when you think about the new possibilities that it may bring to the art.
By the way, I agree that there are some great bonsai pot makers here in the U.S (not sure where the discussion took a turn to this, but I hope my original post wasn't misinterpreted), I'm just wondering if there is a mid-range pot between a grow box and a high quality ceramic pot. Something that looks nice and is affordable, and can scale easily to accomodate larger bonsai without the cost going up exponentially.
Obviously, just switching the material the pot is made of will present some disadvantages, but if processes and techniques are modified to fit the new material, it may be more viable. I'm not saying that every pot would be made of wood, but it would be great if wood pots were accepted as competition worthy.
The pot certainly wouldn't last as long as a ceramic pot, but given the availability and ease of production, I think it could mitigate the downside that the lifetime of the pot presents. When you start thinking in terms of quality wooden pots, it would be much easier for almost anyone to find someone in their area that could built the pot given the specifications. This would also mean the pot would be cheaper and therefore easily replaceable. It would open up avenues for the artist to now be more involved in what the pot looks like to make a one of kind pot to fit the feeling and image that the artist is going for. It may even make pot-making to be in the range of more artists themselves. And instead of paying large sums of money for this one of a kind pot, it's within range to now even replicate this pot many times over.
I realize it's a radical idea, and I didn't think that anyone would latch on to it, but I thought it was worth throwing out there when you think about the new possibilities that it may bring to the art.
By the way, I agree that there are some great bonsai pot makers here in the U.S (not sure where the discussion took a turn to this, but I hope my original post wasn't misinterpreted), I'm just wondering if there is a mid-range pot between a grow box and a high quality ceramic pot. Something that looks nice and is affordable, and can scale easily to accomodate larger bonsai without the cost going up exponentially.
berobinson82
Omono
Since wooden pots aren't plausible for everyday use on the bench, would they be suitable for showing? I've seen videos where trees are transplanted into a different pot right before shows.
RichKid
Shohin
I could see a wooden pot actually looking pretty nice. And you're right, they would be easily replaceable. I don't think its a bad idea at all, most would say it was impractical but I personally don't see why it wouldn't work on young trees that are being repotted every 1-2 years anyway. Maybe on an older established tree thats going to be in its pot for 5 years or more maybe its not a good idea. I was talking about ceramic pottery because somewhere along the line the topic came up and I felt as if most doubted the ability of finding a decent american made pot. IDK This thread is so long, and my original post was wondering about grow boxes for trees I planned to collect, it seems to have morphed multiple times into several topics. Which is fine, because this is how knowledge and technique is disseminated to those of us in need from those in the know. I hope nobody took any offense to anyone elses comments as we are all here to help each other I believe.
RichKid
Shohin
I understand what you're saying, but people do use wooden pots (ie grow boxes) every day so I agree that they could indeed be suitable for bench use. Just think of it as a really pretty and intricately designed grow box!
Emrys
Mame
Honestly, I was hoping that this might happen to this thread when i first saw it posted, as I have had many of the same questiones posed here about alternatives to ceramic pots. I'm still listening.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Points to consider.
1. We are in the USA. Labor is expensive.
2. Material cost is usually negligible in the grand schema especially if you have to replace it in the long run.
Your belief of cheaper pot and ease of production is okay for a box...once you add quality to the mix...the savings is gone because it equates to time ...lots of it and not by a regular carpenter but an artistic one. That said...feel free to use wooden pots.
It is like asking for a cheaper paint that you have to re-coat in a few years vs one that will last twice as long but twice as expensive. The math looks okay but once you factor the cost of the painter you realize you are almost paying twice with the cheaper paint.
Sorry, I'd rather have a cheap yixing Chinese pot (probably cheaper) than a wooden one anytime.
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