Grow boxes

[Poink88]

... given the availability and ease of production, I think it could mitigate the downside that the lifetime of the pot presents. When you start thinking in terms of quality wooden pots, it would be much easier for almost anyone to find someone in their area that could built the pot given the specifications. This would also mean the pot would be cheaper and therefore easily replaceable. .... It may even make pot-making to be in the range of more artists themselves. And instead of paying large sums of money for this one of a kind pot, it's within range to now even replicate this pot many times over.

...I'm just wondering if there is a mid-range pot between a grow box and a high quality ceramic pot. Something that looks nice and is affordable, and can scale easily to accomodate larger bonsai without the cost going up exponentially.

Points to consider.

1. We are in the USA. Labor is expensive.
2. Material cost is usually negligible in the grand schema especially if you have to replace it in the long run.

Your belief of cheaper pot and ease of production is okay for a box...once you add quality to the mix...the savings is gone because it equates to time ...lots of it and not by a regular carpenter but an artistic one.

It is like asking for a cheaper paint that you have to re-coat in a few years vs one that will last twice as long but twice as expensive. The math looks okay but once you factor the cost of the painter you realize you are almost paying twice with the cheaper paint.

Sorry, I'd rather have a cheap yixing Chinese pot (probably cheaper) than a wooden one anytime.

That said, feel free to use wooden pots anytime.

 

[Anthony]

To produce a growing pot out of ceramic is fairly easy.

If for example you look at the growing pots for J.B.pines in Bonsai Today. They are just truncated cones of I believe porous earthenware clay, and if you wanted to, you could have them in stoneware.

They are wheel thrown.

Just find a real potter [ try the Clay Art list ] someone who just makes flowerpots and mugs. Back in 1999 there used to be quite a few names on the list who made simple, humble wares.

Tell them you want wheel thrown circles, you can alter the shape to suit your fancy, and an internal depth of say 5".

Down here I went to the pottery folk and just ordered the largest they could make and let them fit as many smaller sizes in.
It cost very little, and it was worth it.

If not wood, try simple plastic colanders, they work as well.

Trees in training are not meant to be displayed.
Good Morning.
Anthony

 

[rockm]

The problem with low-fired earthenware containers in cold areas is they simply disintegrate. Sometimes they can last for a few years, sometimes longer. However, repeated freez/thaw cycles makes them weaker over time. They flake, crumble and crack because they absorb water, which expands inside the pot walls in cold weather, essentially bursting the pot from interior.

Stoneware pots, fired to cone 8 and above are mostly impervious to water and won't behave like that.

Earthenware pots are fine if you're not planning on leaving the tree in them for any appreciable amount of time (like a few years). This also depends greatly on your local weather.

As for getting "everyday" potters involved in bonsai, it's not as easy as you may think, depending on what you're looking for. Getting a potter who doesn't understand bonsai to understand the subtle artistic function of a bonsai pot is not real easy. I've tried a few times with local potters. they want their work to stand out and "be equal" to the tree. Some have a very hard time getting into the mindset that their work "only" plays a supporting role. They misunderstand the actual importance of that role. That can result in some pots that scream "look at me". Some throw only round pots, which are OK, but round pots are not all that interesting or useable for many bonsai.

Local potters can "get it" though. There are some that produce subtle and useful pots using skills they have developed from "non bonsai" beginnnings.

On the east coast, for instance, Ron Lang began producing bonsai pots some time ago, making mostly rounds. It took him a few years to see that ovals and rectangles were most suited for bonsai, even though they are more difficult to make. He has become an expert at all of those shapes and has developed glazes specifically for bonsai. Dan Gould, the late potter from Pennsylvania was also a "normal" potter who developed his own very effective pots for bonsai. He went back to making kitchen bowls and utensils, however, because "there was no money" in bonsai pots. Dale Cochoy is another potter who has come to understand bonsai and how pots are used. His work has become well-known throughout the U.S.

 

[fore]

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Here are 4 trees that I gathered in the last 1-3 years. They are all in grow boxes. I used pine for a box instead of cedar, but it got slimy and gross as it absorbed more water. The cedar is really the way to go.

Boy fourteener, those are some nice collected trees! You've got a nice collection too One advantage for living in Diluth! Beautiful city btw.

 

[fourteener]

Boy fourteener, those are some nice collected trees! You've got a nice collection too One advantage for living in Diluth! Beautiful city btw.

Thanks, I moved here 9 years ago and love it. It is great for finding cool material. Harsh climate and short growing season.

I got my eye on a couple more trees this spring. Maybe the snow will melt someday!!

 

[jkd2572]

People already sell very nice wooden boxes/pots for people who like Japanese maples on their porch. I would love a small one to put a tree in, but they are pricey and have to be replaced, were pots do not.

 

[subnet_rx]

People already sell very nice wooden boxes/pots for people who like Japanese maples on their porch. I would love a small one to put a tree in, but they are pricey and have to be replaced, were pots do not.

Do you happen to have some pictures? I'd love to have something to show a local woodworker. He could probably do it cheap and I could seal it myself.

 

[jkd2572]

I will try to find you some websites. I have 60 gallon poorly fired clay pots from from Mexico., For lanscaping purposes. They usually coat the inside with some kind of tar substance. They usually fail from outside conditions not inside the pot.

 

[Anthony]

Anyone ever tested a pot made of genuine earthenware clay, as opposed to pottery fired at earthenware temperatures ?

There is a big difference in the hardness and strength of the fired body.

Earthenware clay will normally deform after 1100 deg.C.
Good Morning.
Anthony

* If you haven't done this, it might explain some of the experiences I see in writing.

 

[rockm]

I guess I don't understand the question. What is "genuine earthenware clay?" This is apparently a very subjective mix that varies between countries. From what I could find online, a typical mix includes "25% ball clay, 28% kaolin, 32% quartz and 15% feldspar."

 

[Anthony]

Rockm,

earthenware clay is a naturally occuring clay, normally very high in iron oxide. Very plastic / sticky, matures at a low temperature and very rarely can be white.
Pipe clay is white, and vitrifies at 1000 deg.C and was originally used for making tobacco clay pipes [ the Potter's dictionary - Hamer ]

What you have there is a man-made mix, and I am not sure what good a feldspar is going to be at 1000 deg.c or so.

Without getting too much into pottery science, the idea here is simple - two points.

[1] As training pots and display pots in tropical countries, properly fired natural earthenware, will do perfectly. You find tons of Amerindian pottery in our soils, just broken from use.

[2] In winter/frost climates, the earthenware training pots need to be put into an unheated room and or covered with straw.
However, they can be used safely for years.

What I do read frequently is folk trying to challenge the climate and not work with the situation.

What I would ask, is there any tree in use that has to be outdoors at lower than 32 deg.F, or will dormancy continue in a temperature around 32 deg.F in an unheated room.

I have seen in the old Chinese and Japanese images, plants in sheds / rooms and covered in straw.
I started to wonder if everyone saw some trees covered in snow and assumed that this was how it was done originally?

Today, I see folk trying to buy antique Chinese pots, but at the same time I see Japanese folk listing the antique pots as, originally used for something else.

There is also a mention tn one of the Blogs from your guys in Japan about a Chinese dish doctored to become a bonsai pot, having it's internal glaze removed, and holes put in.
I think the Japanese shimpaku - is it Mishi Shibi, sit's in an antique Chinese pot used for incense and ancestral altar use.

One wonders how many actual Chinese bonsai pots exist?

Anyhow, just food for thought, no great revelations. Thought you guys might like to know that there are actual natural earthenware clays the world over, and they mature to a really hard state, only the poorly fired pots flake with use, especially if they are stoneware fired to earthenware temperatures.
Good Morning.
Anthony

 

[fourteener]

Without getting too much into pottery science, the idea here is simple - two points.

[1] As training pots and display pots in tropical countries, properly fired natural earthenware, will do perfectly. You find tons of Amerindian pottery in our soils, just broken from use.

[2] In winter/frost climates, the earthenware training pots need to be put into an unheated room and or covered with straw.
However, they can be used safely for years.

What I do read frequently is folk trying to challenge the climate and not work with the situation.

What I would ask, is there any tree in use that has to be outdoors at lower than 32 deg.F, or will dormancy continue in a temperature around 32 deg.F in an unheated room.

I have seen in the old Chinese and Japanese images, plants in sheds / rooms and covered in straw.
I started to wonder if everyone saw some trees covered in snow and assumed that this was how it was done originally?


Anyhow, just food for thought, no great revelations. Thought you guys might like to know that there are actual natural earthenware clays the world over, and they mature to a really hard state, only the poorly fired pots flake with use, especially if they are stoneware fired to earthenware temperatures.
Good Morning.
Anthony

I think that everything you are saying is true for the temperate area you live in. I also think you fail to appreciate that here in the coldest parts of the US an earthenware pot is almost useless to us unless we use it for a tree for which we offer protection from the winter cold.

A tamarack in an earthenware pot will not survive three winters of freezing and thawing. It has NOTHING to do with how well (hot) it was fired. They disintegrate. Also, there are species of trees that need to be frozen. Tamaracks need , at minimum, 6 weeks of frozen solid dormancy. They will survive one winter without that, maybe two, but eventually they will die without the right amount of frozen dormant time.

Keeping the native trees from my part of MN in a heated cold frame will kill them off over time. Thus stoneware is the only pot that is practical in my climate.

You need to keep in mind that our climate and the trees we chose to use for bonsai have radically different needs that trees used where you are. The advice you are giving from your neck of the woods is sound, however if I did what you are telling us all to do, I could either kill my trees and have earthenware pots, or I could keep my trees alive with the pottery you suggest and have to buy new pots every three years.

 

[rockm]

Anthony,

I don't understand how you see having to move a tree inside as "going with nature." To my thinking not fighting winter and climate entails preparing for it. Frost-proof stoneware, far from challenging the climate, would seem to be much more in keeping with your philosophy...It doesn't have to be protected.

Amerindian, or Native American, pots are not really made of some special earthenware clay. They are made simply from what clay was locally available and by the technology the makers had on hand to make it. Native Americans historically couldn't build the kilns necessary to fire clay to stoneware temps (and BTW in the cold, wet eastern U.S. their pottery doesn't survive as well as it does in the aird Southwestern states)

By your reasoning, naturally-occurring stoneware clay is just as available, if not MORE available than earthenware. There have been hundreds of kilns in the eastern U.S. that have been making stoneware for well over 300 years. I have been collecting antique stoneware containers made in Virginia and Pennsylvania for some time, as I have also collected native American pottery over the years. The clays used in both are almost always local...

The picture below is of a 200 year old stoneware pot made in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia using locally sourced clay.

 

[Anthony]

Thank you fourteener, for the tree fact. I was curious, and wondered if a tree had to go 32 deg.F or below, in a bonsai pot, to complete it's cycle.

I wasn't talking about heated rooms, just rooms allowed to go cold and if need be, straw as insulation.

I actually have no problem replacing old pots every three years, especially if they are worn or cracked, better than what I have happening presently, with all these pots starting to pile up on me.
Probably why, with this summer, I will be re-starting with a few others to make these pots out of local material, getting tired of spending all that money on pots, which have to be imported.

Rockm,

earthenware clay is surface clay for most parts of the world, it is very abundant, but most potters won't use it, because of the drying requirements.
However, it is very easy to render it non-porous [ as in Stoneware porous].

My next question would have been, so if potters could fire a clay to a non porous state and at a much lower temperature, would they ask for less money to make a bonsai pot.

Actually, it's the ball clay and feldspar part that is important for industry, from your earlier listing. Natural stoneware is from the days of local potters [ mostly a leftover European tradition.]
Thanks for responding.
Good Day.
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Hey Guys,

please note, I am just chatting. I am giving no advice and I am curious about things on your side.
The books say things like trees in bonsai pots, with such small quantites of soil, feel temperatures differently to trees in the ground. Probably because of decaying leaf mould ?
So when I research and see how things were done in the past, I tend to ask questions or throw out an idea, to see what experience might say.

I do have a good deal of pottery experience and I live next door to a trained potter [ in the old ways, still digs and processes his own clay, but does pottery science, as in having the clays chemically checked for oxides present, invents glazes from oxides and tests them for solubility.]

Any how I am new here, and apologies if I have stepped on toes, just trying to fit in.
Thanks for the patience.
Good Morning.
Anthony

 

[KennedyMarx]

Hey Guys,

please note, I am just chatting. I am giving no advice and I am curious about things on your side.
The books say things like trees in bonsai pots, with such small quantites of soil, feel temperatures differently to trees in the ground. Probably because of decaying leaf mould ?
So when I research and see how things were done in the past, I tend to ask questions or throw out an idea, to see what experience might say.

I do have a good deal of pottery experience and I live next door to a trained potter [ in the old ways, still digs and processes his own clay, but does pottery science, as in having the clays chemically checked for oxides present, invents glazes from oxides and tests them for solubility.]

Any how I am new here, and apologies if I have stepped on toes, just trying to fit in.
Thanks for the patience.
Good Morning.
Anthony

I think that in a pot there isn't as much insulation for the roots as compared to in the ground. Thus a potted tree will see much more of a temperature fluctuation in the roots than in the ground.