HELP! Satsuki Azalea Dying

[roberthu]

Is it kept in full sun or partial shade? Maybe I missed it but heat with full sun can be unbearable for an azalea.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'm glad the soil question has been worked out so that il cognoscenti can keep Azaleas fat & happy. I'm too dumb to buy Kanuma, etc. and use equal parts garden top soil and Pine bark soil conditioner which is half-composted and mostly fines. No rocks allowed in my pots. I water every day it doesn't rain except twice a day over 85°F. My plants are in >half day sun and doing well. I never let them suffer from drought. I love it when I do everything wrong and they thrive anyway. Agriculture is the second largest economic portion of my Michigan. Michigan grows organically!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I'm glad the soil question has been worked out so that il cognoscenti can keep Azaleas fat & happy. I'm too dumb to buy Kanuma, etc. and use equal parts garden top soil and Pine bark soil conditioner which is half-composted and mostly fines. No rocks allowed in my pots. I water every day it doesn't rain except twice a day over 85°F. My plants are in >half day sun and doing well. I never let them suffer from drought. I love it when I do everything wrong and they thrive anyway. Agriculture is the second largest economic portion of my Michigan. Michigan grows organically!

That’s so interesting that you are using a “non approved” soil and you azaleas are flourishing. I‘m a fan of kanuma/ chopped Sphagnum.... but maybe it’s because I’m following the “best practices cookbook!” just to get my feet under me and because I’ve seen folks do well with it, or maybe its just because I’m too dumb to know there are other equally good mixes, and perhaps better!!

Lately I’ve been seeing hard evidence towards the latter.

First: Last winter I was reading about Satsuki. I read Naka, Ott and Rokkaku couldn’t get kanuma, so they used (Bonsai Techniques for Satsuki)
2 Peat moss : 2 Redwood bark : 1 Perlite near the Ocean,
and in hotter areas, 2 Peat : 2 Redwood bark : 1 Pumice.
(Don’t know how the heck they came up with this! btw: Did anyone ask Boon how he came up with Boon’s mixes?)

Second, Two weeks ago I was Elandan Gardens working for Dan Robinson. We accidentally came an hour early, so my wife and I got him all to ourselves and peppered him with questions....
He uses 1/3 Fir bark : 1/3 Pumice 1/3 Lava and asserts that he never repots..... some of his trees have been in pots for over 40 years... but it’s not just soil and a tree in his pots, it’s an ecosystem with every plant, fungi etc that happens comes along and some he just stuffs in.

I was working by one of his trees, a loaner, at the Pacific Bonsai Museum today that have mushrooms, lungwort and Nodding Onions, moss etc covering the soil the soil.
Dan calls the clay soils “the enemy”. When asked why, he said after a couple years they clog up and force you to repot, something his mix never did...

Third, today I was at the Museum debudding Satsukis... another controversial practice..... and one of the Satsuki (pictured) that I was working on looked yellow and wasn’t growing out well. It was planted in straight Kanuma with about 50% moss on the surface. We discussed adding some slow release fertilizer to boost it. I removed some moss to have more surface area to put the pellets on. Then it was watered in preparation to adding some liquid ferts and some slow release pellets.... and the water would not drain through the pot after standing in a puddle on top for 10 minutes! So we plunked the Satsuki, pot and all, in a tub of water. They’ll see if it actually begins to absorb water tomorrow.

Makes you wonder....!
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[fredman]

That’s so interesting that you are using a “non approved” soil and you azaleas are flourishing. I‘m a fan of kanuma/ chopped Sphagnum.... but maybe it’s because I’m following the “best practices cookbook!” just to get my feet under me and because I’ve seen folks do well with it, or maybe its just because I’m too dumb to know there are other equally good mixes, and perhaps better!!

Lately I’ve been seeing hard evidence towards the latter.

First: Last winter I was reading about Satsuki. I read Naka, Ott and Rokkaku couldn’t get kanuma, so they used (Bonsai Techniques for Satsuki)
2 Peat moss : 2 Redwood bark : 1 Perlite near the Ocean,
and in hotter areas, 2 Peat : 2 Redwood bark : 1 Pumice.
(Don’t know how the heck they came up with this! btw: Did anyone ask Boon how he came up with Boon’s mixes?)

Second, Two weeks ago I was Elandan Gardens working for Dan Robinson. We accidentally came an hour early, so my wife and I got him all to ourselves and peppered him with questions....
He uses 1/3 Fir bark : 1/3 Pumice 1/3 Lava and asserts that he never repots..... some of his trees have been in pots for over 40 years... but it’s not just soil and a tree in his pots, it’s an ecosystem with every plant, fungi etc that happens comes along and some he just stuffs in.

I was working by one of his trees, a loaner, at the Pacific Bonsai Museum today that have mushrooms, lungwort and Nodding Onions, moss etc covering the soil the soil.
Dan calls the clay soils “the enemy”. When asked why, he said after a couple years they clog up and force you to repot, something his mix never did...

Third, today I was at the Museum debudding Satsukis... another controversial practice..... and one of the Satsuki (pictured) that I was working on looked yellow and wasn’t growing out well. It was planted in straight Kanuma with about 50% moss on the surface. We discussed adding some slow release fertilizer to boost it. I removed some moss to have more surface area to put the pellets on. Then it was watered in preparation to adding some liquid ferts and some slow release pellets.... and the water would not drain through the pot after standing in a puddle on top for 10 minutes! So we plunked the Satsuki, pot and all, in a tub of water. They’ll see if it actually begins to absorb water tomorrow.

Makes you wonder....!
Cheers
DSD sends

View attachment 314940

Very interesting write up mate. I can't believe Dan never repots. It just don't make sense to me. What about all the coiled up and over crowded roots. That would push tree out the pot eventually. Did you poke him about that?
Interesting about the kanuma. I always had my azaleas in pumice and pine bark and I just could not keep them happy. This year I found some kanuma and i'm excited but at the same time abrehensive about it. I'm not to sure if I should add cut sphagnum to it. My little voice says not to as winters are long and very wet here in NZ. I work from home so I can check on them regularly...definitely a few hundred times a day the first few weeks

 

[Forsoothe!]

Nothing is more important than the personal care given by an individual and his own routine. Except perhaps the local water source and micro-climate. And maybe the regional climate is inescapable, too, because soggy climates like the southeastern US and the Pacific Northwest are so different from the lee side of the Rockies where the humidity hangs around 10%, unheard of here in the mid-west. The US is only about 6% of the world, and the list of special, ~bizarre~ climates abound. My dirt may be perfect for me and mine, and perfectly murder elsewhere, as I expect Kanuma and everything else is, too.

Look at this climate map of the Med. 28 climates, all tucked in cheek-by-jowl.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@fredman & @Deep Sea Diver
Your observations about Dan Robinson are correct, he doesn't repot. He also allows roots to coil and lift trees out of their pots. Dan R drives afficianados of classic Japanese styles crazy. Of course his trees are proof there is more than one aesthetic that "works", Dan's trees have great visual impact.

Soils, again, there is more than one approach. I've seen @Forsoothe! 's trees at Michigan shows. They are healthy, and display worthy. His mix works. I also prefer my pumice based mix. I will not go back to "potting soil", regardless.

If you understand how and when to water the media of your choice, you can grow bonsai or orchids in just about anything. If you know how to water it and how to adjust your fertilizer accordingly. I grew orchid one year in chunks of rubber tires, just to prove the point. The left over tire chunks ended up in my bonsai mix. They are gone now. But for years, because I recycled mixes, tire chunks would keep turning up.

So find a mix you like to use, and learn to use it correctly. I happen to like Kanuma for my azalea. I will keep using it. It works, once you get the hang of watering. I do think the OP was over-watering .

 

[fredman]

Your observations about Dan Robinson are correct, he doesn't repot. He also allows roots to coil and lift trees out of their pots. Dan R drives afficianados of classic Japanese styles crazy. Of course his trees are proof there is more than one aesthetic that "works", Dan's trees have great visual impact.

Man I would love to see Dan's trees. If one really think about it, the only reason plants grow in the ground, is because of moisture and nutrients. The only function of the roots is to anchor it, while it's taking up the nutrients...
I suppose the roots system gets to a stage when it sort of self contains itself...?

I happen to like Kanuma for my azalea. I will keep using it. It works, once you get the hang of watering.

Plz elaborate on that some Leo. I'm using kanuma for the first time this coming spring.
I saw a video where Paul Eslinger said to not keep it to wet as the azalea gets lazy to extend it's roots. Dry it out some...but that scares me, as I lost some satsuki because they dried out.
How do you water your kanuma?

 

[Forsoothe!]

I grew orchid one year in chunks of rubber tires, just to prove the point.

I know that Leo knows that a major fraction of natural rubber tires is the carbon black which serves as a curative, along with sulfur and latex resin.

 

[bunjin]

A while back I did a four year study of the growth of 8 Satsuki rooted cuttings in four different soil mixes: Naka's mix, a commercial mix similar to what Nuccio's uses(peat/perlite), my own mix, and pure Kanuma. I probably should write up the results even though it had many, many flaws as a scientific study. In my environment, the pure Kanuma was the only soil that was markedly inferior as far as growth/health. Maruyama in Sacramento puts plastic peanuts in the bottom of his azalea containers, which seems to work and does conserve Kanuma. I did not continue with this practice when I repotted the ones that I bought from him because it is very hard to extract the roots from the peanuts.

 

[fredman]

In my environment, the pure Kanuma was the only soil that was markedly inferior as far as growth/health

Mmm see why i'm scared...
I don't want to spend a season just to find it don't work for me. I'd rather just use a ericacious potting soil then...

 

[bunjin]

My water is very hard which is why I need the more acidic components. Also to consider is the fact that azaleas grown in pure organic soils have difficulty transitioning into Kanuma.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Dunno if you really need to worry all that much. Learning to water kanuma based azaleas is about the same as any other new soil. The plus is kanuma turns lighter when the soil is drying out.

@Leo in N E Illinois earlier , perhaps on a different thread, said he looked underneath In the drain holes to see the color change. I use chopped Sphagnum in my Azaleas, so it holds a bit more water. I use two methods to cross check. Kanuma turning lighter on top and weight of the container. Kanuma soaks up a good deal of water, so as water leaves the kanuma the mass changes markedly.

However a good soils comparison on multiple Satsuki and multiple cultivars sounds like a really interesting experiment. I’m really interested to see how @bunjin designed his study.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

My water is very hard which is why I need the more acidic components. Also to consider is the fact that azaleas grown in pure organic soils have difficulty transitioning into Kanuma.

Two interesting bits of data and a couple of questions.

As posted earlier, I’d really like to see the write up from your study, design etc.

Two questions:

1. Are/were you watering with hard water from the Goleta Water District (in your study and now)?

2. Can you please also post the basis of factual information supporting your post “.... Also to consider is the fact that azaleas grown in pure organic soils have difficulty transitioning into Kanuma.“ I’m specifically wondering whether transitioning to kanuma is more/same or less difficult then transitioning to any other organic media.

Thank you,
DSD sends

 

[Forsoothe!]

This kind of conversation amuses me because people are seriously talking about picking up and examining pots and all this touchy-feely crap as though they have time for such fooling around. It takes me a half hour to water my trees spraying with a hose. They are in several areas of my backyard and span every species, shape, volume, exposure and size from thimble to two-man. It's a whole lot easier to damage a tree by letting it get too dry than it is keeping it too wet in the growing season, so everything gets soaked every time. I don't allow any weeds in my pots and that's an indication of how continually attentive I am to the details of my charges. I see many, many tree photos here with pots full of weeds which is an indicator of how attentive others are. I do not believe for one New York minute that anyone with any serious number of trees fools around with the touchy-feely pick-em-up-and-examine-closely for wet/dry,or for that matter anything else on a routine, daily basis. The concept of having a half dozen different formulae for different species is also a non-starter. I have trouble remembering what work I did on which trees last week, much less which trees in a hundred different size pots needing special care because of different evaporation rates. These kinds of discussions are strictly intellectual excursions into woulda coulda shoulda and are not real.

 

[fredman]

This kind of conversation amuses me because people are seriously talking about picking up and examining pots and all this touchy-feely crap as though they have time for such fooling around. It takes me a half hour to water my trees spraying with a hose. They are in several areas of my backyard and span every species, shape, volume, exposure and size from thimble to two-man. It's a whole lot easier to damage a tree by letting it get too dry than it is keeping it too wet in the growing season, so everything gets soaked every time. I don't allow any weeds in my pots and that's an indication of how continually attentive I am to the details of my charges. I see many, many tree photos here with pots full of weeds which is an indicator of how attentive others are. I do not believe for one New York minute that anyone with any serious number of trees fools around with the touchy-feely pick-em-up-and-examine-closely for wet/dry,or for that matter anything else on a routine, daily basis. The concept of having a half dozen different formulae for different species is also a non-starter. I have trouble remembering what work I did on which trees last week, much less which trees in a hundred different size pots needing special care because of different evaporation rates. These kinds of discussions are strictly intellectual excursions into woulda coulda shoulda and are not real.

Yeah seems silly hey, but watering correctly is a thing..apparently. There's more to it than just dumping water. Watering to soon often, can set the roots back, and if it persists, can cause problems. Watering to late, and/or to little, can present another set of problems again.
I've heard the apprentices in Japan spends the first year or so only learning how to water.
I don't have a problem with watering per se, but kanuma is new to me. I'll sort it out, but if I can go into it 'pre informed', me and the trees can only be better off for it.
Again...Paul Eslinger comments is what set me thinking on kanuma. He said not to keep it to wet, as the azalea roots don't extend freely when moisture is always available...roots get 'lazy'....let it dry out some so the roots has to go seek the water. Imagine that...letting an azalea dry out...
As I said...it's a thing to find that thin line. Or the alternative is to dump and hope...I guess

 

[chansen]

Yeah seems silly hey, but watering correctly is a thing..apparently. There's more to it than just dumping water. Watering to soon often, can set the roots back, and if it persists, can cause problems. Watering to late, and/or to little, can present another set of problems again.
I've heard the apprentices in Japan spends the first year or so only learning how to water.
I don't have a problem with watering per se, but kanuma is new to me. I'll sort it out, but if I can go into it 'pre informed', me and the trees can only be better off for it.
Again...Paul Eslinger comments is what set me thinking on kanuma. He said not to keep it to wet, as the azalea roots don't extend freely when moisture is always available...roots get 'lazy'....let it dry out some so the roots has to go seek the water. Imagine that...letting an azalea dry out...
As I said...it's a thing to find that thin line. Or the alternative is to dump and hope...I guess

I did the dump and hope thing before and the tree almost died from staying too wet. You just have to be attentive to the watering need. I have no idea what the weather is like where you are in NZ, but given it's an island in the south Pacific I can guess at least a little. You're close to sea level, I bet it doesn't get too hot nor too cold, and probably pretty humid (am I close?). You don't have to put in a lot of effort to check the water level, just stick your finger in the pot and feel. If the soil is still wet 2-3cm down, don't water. If it's dry, give it some. I work from home all the time, so I can periodically check my trees and water when they need it. The azalea will start to look wilt just a little, and then I'll water it fully. I haven't had any leaf damage from that method, and the tree is healthy. My process may not work for you, but there are better ways than dump and hope if you want optimal plant results.

 

[Forsoothe!]

WeatherSpark is a world-wide climate reporting site pick a city and they give you the whole enchilada.

 

[fredman]

I did the dump and hope thing before and the tree almost died from staying too wet. You just have to be attentive to the watering need. I have no idea what the weather is like where you are in NZ, but given it's an island in the south Pacific I can guess at least a little. You're close to sea level, I bet it doesn't get too hot nor too cold, and probably pretty humid (am I close?). You don't have to put in a lot of effort to check the water level, just stick your finger in the pot and feel. If the soil is still wet 2-3cm down, don't water. If it's dry, give it some. I work from home all the time, so I can periodically check my trees and water when they need it. The azalea will start to look wilt just a little, and then I'll water it fully. I haven't had any leaf damage from that method, and the tree is healthy. My process may not work for you, but there are better ways than dump and hope if you want optimal plant results.

Yeah I started off with fingers, chop sticks and tooth picks a few years ago. Now I just go by looking at it...and the weight of the pot, if i'm in doubt. I've learnt what works in my climate. I'll sort kanuma out to. My zone is 8...roughly....but that is changing to.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Basic climates don't change, but weather does go through cycles. Here in Detroit there is an approximately 34 year cycle of high water to low water back to high water on the Great Lakes. Legend has it that the Indians were aware of it, too. I live at the mouth of a river and this immediate area was settled in about 1840. An Ohio man bought the land and intended to build a hotel and trading post in anticipation of a railroad spur to be built soon thereafter. The Indians told him, "Do not build here, big water come in spring, wash everything away..." It was almost finished in March of the year following when big water come, wash everything away. We are at high water now and still have 3 more years to the peak, according to the 34 year cycle.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yes.... don’t feel a need to dive into a lengthy watering discussion either.

At 30-40 minutes a watering session, I’m pretty much of a @Walter Pall fan on watering. But each to their own devices.

Being that 2019 was my first full year with trees in pots, I learned a real lot. One thing was that I rarely have time to check even a 1/10 of the pots.

I learned to use a couple quick and dirty indicators. So the only times I really feel a need to pop up a pot to check the media and the tree are:

When, in our area which is in the Puget Sound Convergence Zone, a series of rain storms are battering us to check when if it time to insert or take out wedges or rocks under the pots to tilt them up or down change the water table in the pots. Happens a 2-3 times in spring and also in fall so far. Not sure if folks in other areas use this practice, or not,

To check a few select trees in certain pots for dryness to see if I need to do two a days.

I think it’s a part of the learning curve to get to know the characteristics of the different soils I use.

Best to all,
DSD sends