bonsaibp
Omono
Check horticultral charcoal on Ebay.
Horticultural charcoal
- Thread starter radsnell
- Start date
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks. I'll try to source it locally first, shipping is deal breaker.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
edprocoat
Masterpiece
All charcoal is carbon, or burnt wood. I use it for two reasons mainly, its ability to absorb and remove toxins and it keeps soil smells down. I usually just burn a piece of a pine 2x4 until its black and fissured and scrape some off with a knife. I have used parts of the plant I have cut off in the same way at times too, its just harder to get enough of it like that unless you have a big piece. There is a product called Cowboy Charcoal carried by places like wally-mark, homosexual depot and Lowest that is natural wood charcoal. I would assume that is the stuff from the earlier post "use whats left to cook" was referring too.
ed
ed
Ok so when someone suggested I add some charcoal to soil mix for collected trees. I tried to do some preliminary research on why this is a helpful soil component. I feel I've learned some good information and also feel like I'm more confused than before. Which it seems alot of people are confused on this subject. I'm just one of those people that likes to have a somewhat scientific understanding for something like this.
The one thing that seems apparent to me right now, that it seems alot of people are overlooking, is that you could say there are two basic types of "charcoal": Those that are baked at very high temperatures (At least 450 Celcius and upwards) which is commonly and scientifically referred to as biochar (or at least 600 celcius for "activated" charcoal) and then in the other category you have any type of charcoal that was baked at a lower temperature than this. (though activated charcoal can be made a bit below 600 C if certain chemicals are used, eek).
There seems to be very important differences in the properties of high temp vs low temp charcoals and how they act in a soil. But I'm still confused. All the common names for products I feel like blur the line of what is the ideal charcoal.
So I think Al is right on for why he uses charcoal in his mix, this may be one the larger benefits for its use in bonsai soil. Though I do agree with Dario that there are a few things that article overlooks.
I see that Al's article says that horticultural charcoal is a "normal temperature" charcoal and wikipedia says biochar is a "high temperature" charcoal, needlessy to say relative terms are pretty arbitrary right now and and I'm pretty sure horticultural charcoal is biochar from things I've read. Whereas VERY high temperature charcoal is activated charcoal, and wikipedia indicates that: "Low temperature charcoal (but not that from grasses or high cellulose materials) has an internal layer of biological petroleum condensates that the bacteria consume, and is similar to cellulose in its effects on microbial growth.[26] Charring at high temperature loses that layer and brings little increase in soil fertility." I.e. If you're using activated charcoal you are probably not getting the benefit of beneficial bacterial growth, which is the whole reason Al uses it, and you're probably putting some funky chemicals in your soil too.
So, it may be that using activated charcoal is definitely not the way to go. Alot of it is made out of coal too as opposed to wood/plant material. And just regular old grilling charcoal may be heated at too low of a temperature to be ideal. I'd like to double check on different horticultural charcoal to see their heating temps.
But the other benefits of biochar I've picked up on are it greatly increases CEC in the soil: "The slow oxidation of charcoal creates carboxylic groups; these increase the cations' exchange capacity of the soil" as well as promotes the growth of beneficial Mycorrhizae fungi along with bacteria: "Amending soil with biochar has been observed to increase the activity of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Tests of high porosity materials such as zeolite, activated carbon, and charcoal show that microbial growth substantially improves with charcoal." Which for a newly collected trees is great, as mycorrihzae work wonders in establishing your root system.
But in addition to that, charcoal won't break down. There is charcoal from ancient amazonian civilizations still in that *fertile* soil 1,500 years later.
Keep this is mind though, also from wikipedia: "Several experiments demonstrate that uncharged charcoal can bring a provisional depletion of available nutrients when first put into the soil - until its pores fill with nutrients. This is overcome by soaking the charcoal for two to four weeks in any liquid nutrient (urine, plant tea, etc.).". I assume most horticulral charcoal is already charged with nutrients, but you wouldn't want to zap your soil with uncharged charcoal. Also I don't promote peeing on your charcoal!
fore
Omono
OMG!! Dude!! You do realize that's very bigoted!! Keep your shit ass views to yourself or leave if you can't be civil. I hope the moderator steps in and takes appropriate action.
I second that. He posted in a thread the other day saying he doesn't think trees should be collected from the wild because god put them there. Which is fine with me if he feels that way but I don't know why he bothered posting it in my thread about soil for collected trees. Let's not let this thread get too off topic though.
dick benbow
Omono
trying to get us refocused back on the original subject. I have used it for 2 years now in my soil mix as 10%. I picked up on it while volunteering with David De Groot at The Weyerhaeuser Bonsai display. I have bags of charcoal as a water cleanser for my Koi ponds and i pick it up at my local pond/aquarium supply house. Comes in 40 pound bags.....thru observation can i tell you that it makes a BIG difference in the trees? LOL Not really, but I respect the curator as being knowledgeable about keeping his world wide collection of expensive trees in great shape. 
fore
Omono
trying to get us refocused back on the original subject. I have used it for 2 years now in my soil mix as 10%. I picked up on it while volunteering with David De Groot at The Weyerhaeuser Bonsai display. I have bags of charcoal as a water cleanser for my Koi ponds and i pick it up at my local pond/aquarium supply house. Comes in 40 pound bags.....thru observation can i tell you that it makes a BIG difference in the trees? LOL Not really, but I respect the curator as being knowledgeable about keeping his world wide collection of expensive trees in great shape.
I haven't been using charcoal b/c I never read a good reason why it's being used. Great thread with objective information and shared experiences. I'll certainly pick some up and try it. If it really does help benefit the soil, and encourages breakdown of fertilizer, it's a no brainer as it's cheap comparatively.
nathanbs
Omono
two wrongs don't make a right. You should try being a little more diplomatic in your approach
What to use and what to definitely not use.
I have a little further and *important* information on what charcoal you should use and what charcoal you should not use. Basically what I said in my last post but a little more succinct. Just read an article on a study done last year about how charcoal needs to be created to be beneficial to soil (links below). Basically, if it is not made at a temperature between 450 and 600 degrees Celsius, it is not what you want. this is why:
If it is charcoal created below 450 degrees Celsius it will be hydrophobic. Meaning the chemical structure will actually repel water. Not good.
If it is created at a heat between 450 and 600 Celcius it will have the best properties for improving soil. From the article: "The researchers found charcoal produced at temperatures of 450 Celsius or higher was most likely to improve soil drainage and make more water available to plants, while charcoal produced at lower temperatures could sometimes repel water."
And charcoal heated at above 600 degrees Celsius (activated charcoal) seems to lose these desirable qualities. And even more, like I said in my previous post, charcoal heated above 600 Celsius loses its unique ability at supporting beneficial bacteria, and if I connect the dots right, then probably mycorrhizae as well. I see a number of people talking about using activated charcoal in this thread alone. That's the stuff for the fish too. I think you're probably better off using horticultural charcoal fired in the correct temperature range. Though it is common to create activated charcoal/carbon at below 600 C but requires the use of other chemicals and I really don't know how this effects the final product.
And charcoal briquettes? "are not pure charcoal.[15] They are usually compacted mixtures of sawdust with additives like coal or coke and various binders." -Wikipedia. And no one in the US really uses real charcoal to cook anymore, so beware of putting that in your soil.
SO! In conclusion: Don't buy activated/fish charcoal, don't smash up charcoal leftover from your cookout and throw it in, and don't buy any other charcoal not made and the correct temperature. Buy some sort of horticultural charcoal (Biochar) that was created between 450-600 C.
Link to article: http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/
The study the article was based on: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0961953412000438
I have a little further and *important* information on what charcoal you should use and what charcoal you should not use. Basically what I said in my last post but a little more succinct. Just read an article on a study done last year about how charcoal needs to be created to be beneficial to soil (links below). Basically, if it is not made at a temperature between 450 and 600 degrees Celsius, it is not what you want. this is why:
If it is charcoal created below 450 degrees Celsius it will be hydrophobic. Meaning the chemical structure will actually repel water. Not good.
If it is created at a heat between 450 and 600 Celcius it will have the best properties for improving soil. From the article: "The researchers found charcoal produced at temperatures of 450 Celsius or higher was most likely to improve soil drainage and make more water available to plants, while charcoal produced at lower temperatures could sometimes repel water."
And charcoal heated at above 600 degrees Celsius (activated charcoal) seems to lose these desirable qualities. And even more, like I said in my previous post, charcoal heated above 600 Celsius loses its unique ability at supporting beneficial bacteria, and if I connect the dots right, then probably mycorrhizae as well. I see a number of people talking about using activated charcoal in this thread alone. That's the stuff for the fish too. I think you're probably better off using horticultural charcoal fired in the correct temperature range. Though it is common to create activated charcoal/carbon at below 600 C but requires the use of other chemicals and I really don't know how this effects the final product.
And charcoal briquettes? "are not pure charcoal.[15] They are usually compacted mixtures of sawdust with additives like coal or coke and various binders." -Wikipedia. And no one in the US really uses real charcoal to cook anymore, so beware of putting that in your soil.
SO! In conclusion: Don't buy activated/fish charcoal, don't smash up charcoal leftover from your cookout and throw it in, and don't buy any other charcoal not made and the correct temperature. Buy some sort of horticultural charcoal (Biochar) that was created between 450-600 C.
Link to article: http://news.rice.edu/2012/03/22/cooking-better-biochar-study-improves-recipe-for-soil-additive/
The study the article was based on: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0961953412000438
wireme
Masterpiece
A related topic for the research orientated, do a search for terra preta.
In this case low temp and low 02 created charcoal I believe. I think the discovery and research into terra preta has a lot to do with current interest and studies into biochar.
Personally I just use chunks pulled from my fireplace, I'll check out the links posted someday soon though, thanks.
Mp
In this case low temp and low 02 created charcoal I believe. I think the discovery and research into terra preta has a lot to do with current interest and studies into biochar.
Personally I just use chunks pulled from my fireplace, I'll check out the links posted someday soon though, thanks.
Mp
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Do not be so bigoted to a play on words I stated as a joke, if I offended your preferences I am sorry, if that is not sufficient then you too can leave. Just wondering what action you would like the moderator to take, remove the post, verbally reprimand me, nail my fingers to my keyboard? You really should keep your filthy curse words off the board, we all can agree that the word homosexual is no more than a descriptive word describing a same sex attraction while the two profanities you wrote are indeed filth. It was meant as a light hearted joke that I hear all the time from contractors who are fed up with Home Depot and their policies of no service and cheap products that break or fail and leave you with no recourse.
ed
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edprocoat
Masterpiece
Cypress, obviously your reading retention is not that keen, I was replying to your thread about charcoal, that was posted at the end of the reply. Maybe you should work on your memory retention, they say Omega 3 in fish oils helps with that. By the way, in the thread I posted about collecting trees from the wild I wrote " where God or nature allowed them " I prefaced that with saying " I never collect trees form the wild" never did I say I did not think they should or should not be collected, shewww, as I said you really need to work on your memory.
ed
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First off, the thread wasn't about charcoal, it was about me asking people if they use a different soil for newly collected trees. Memory? Right here Ed: http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13531-Do-you-use-a-different-soil-for-collected-trees . I didn't start a thread about charcoal so I'm not sure what you're referring to otherwise. As you saw me write previously in this thread, I don't mind if you personally feel that way. It just seemed like a very arbitrary thing to post for no reason in the thread. Holier than thou ed.
This is exactly what you wrote: "I just feel that the trees in the wild belong where God and nature allowed them to be.". If you're telling others that you feel they belong there... the way your saying it implies you think they should not be collected. If my memory is apparently faulty, maybe you should brush up on your grammar.
Which brings me to this. I wouldn't be posting this type of response if you weren't outwardly insulting me. Insulting me in a pitifully condescending manner. Yea my brain doesn't work correctly anymore ed, I'll be sure to take some more omega-3s.
This is not something I wish to get into with you or anyone on this forum, but like i said, you put me in your crosshairs then I'll give it back: Just because you hear some homophobic contractors use homophobic jokes all the time doesn't make it ok to perpetuate it. In fact that sort of casual 'joke' is a large way in which hate and misunderstanding is perpetuated. Furthermore, the joke itself aligns homosexuality with something very negative: a corporation that apparently doesn't offer good service or products to contractors.
I'm here to talk about bonsai. What are you here to talk about? Let's get back to the topic. Consider this the end of my discussion with you Ed. Merry Christmas from St. Johns!
edprocoat
Masterpiece
Actually what I said was " I feel " personally, not aimed at anyone, my personal feelings. The joke was homophobic, you are saying the use of it implies fear of homosexuals..... and my brain " doesn't work correctly ". Obviously you started this and are not man enough to own up to it, but you "brought me into the crosshairs first " with your jab at a simple phrase, then secondly with your reference to an old post of mine. I would never expect you to admit it judging by your response feigning innocence and using hate speech against heterosexual contractors. Yes I meant to write that I was replying to a thread about charcoal, looks like my brain aint really functioning much better. The joke actually evolved from the older parody of the cartoon character or mascot of Home Depot called Homer Depot, who was referred to as Homersexual for his stance in the life size drawing, yes crude but far from hate or fear, you read where I said it was a cartoon drawing? And your condescending use of " Holier than thou " seemed very much like theophobia to me. Then you follow it up with Merry Christmas and now you got me! I am sorry if I offended you or any other man or woman that God created on this the eve of his birth, Merry Christmas to you and yours.
ed
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