Chris, I would like to see some examples of JBP that were grown and styled here in America that are approaching even my average JBP (Japanese import) I meant to say RMJs but it may be the same for Ponderosa. Walter bought a lot of trees here in America and now he is trying to sell them, because he can't import them at home.
Japanese-European-American bonsai myth
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
Chris, I would like to see some examples of JBP that were grown and styled here in America that are approaching even my average JBP (Japanese import) I meant to say RMJs but it may be the same for Ponderosa. Walter bought a lot of trees here in America and now he is trying to sell them, because he can't import them at home.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Harry, you just have to talk to the right people. Even as we speak, Boon is growing hundreds of Japanese black pine seedlings.
Your statement was that we will never catch up. My point is that we will.
Your statement was that we will never catch up. My point is that we will.
No sense discussing my statement you and I will never know the answer. It will take a family project unless the growers are ten years old now. Boon won't know either unless he lives to a ripe old age of 80 or more.Someone could take over the pines and maybe finish them, who knows or cares.
Harry
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Walter Pall
Masterpiece
Sure Chris,
but you don't expect me to show them in the context of this thread? They can be readily seen on my gallery:
http://walter-pall.de/pinesponderosa_pine_nr__1.jpg.dir/index.html
http://walter-pall.de/pinesponderosa_pine_nr__2.jpg.dir/index.html
http://walter-pall.de/pinesponderosa_pine_nr__3.jpg.dir/index.html
Ang3lfir3
Omono
Did you ignore all the examples that I gave you the last time you wanted to see this? There are more than the ones i linked... and better pics too... but Vic would have to post those since she took them... granted most of them took 50yrs to get to where they are today.
Ang, I saw them and but I didn't want to hurt your feelings orthe man that created them. They had their own style, but they didn't look anything like traditional Japanese styled trees that I'm fond of.
Harry
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Ang3lfir3
Omono
That is the nicest thing you could have possibly said.....
Chris Johnston
Omono
No, I was just wondering about what Harry had said. Thanks for the response!
I'm truly glad the gentleman achieved the style he wanted and that there are fans like you that appreciate his work, 50 years is a long time if they didn't turn out the way he wanted them to. My personal taste just run to the traditional Japanese style that got me interested in bonsai in the first place.
Harry
Ang3lfir3
Omono
I hope you get a chance to see them in person one day.... you might even like them
and they look better in person.... I know that you can at least appreciate the 1/2" needles that have been achieved on some of them...I hope you get a chance to see them in person one day.... you might even like them
I would like to see them sometime. I'm not closed minded about admiring someone else's hard work. Everyone of my trees are someone else's work but one.
Harry
Ang3lfir3
Omono
just let me know when you are in the area... I'll give you the tour myself.... that goes for anyone else... Except you Walter (just kidding)... you've already been there a time or two
Bill S
Masterpiece
Interesting premis Al, I think I agree with you, but , well something is missing, like seeing (often) Japaneese trees, hearing critiques from Japaneese people, seeing some common progression photos. I think we have a lack of experiance. This isn't all inclusive obviously, because I think all if not most of us have seen our share of Bonsai Today, and other books, some peruse the Japaneese sites as well. But it seems general experiance seems to be a mix of European, and American trees. There all good in there own way, but I think the gist of the arguument boils down to just that experiance of shared knowledge in a social way. We share more in common here in the US with the Europeans than the Japaneese in many ways.
I think too that the local has something to do with it as well for te US and Europeans it is easier to travel to other areas where there are cultural and ecological differances as well as work ethics. Then there is time spent, when we get to be doing Bonsai for as long as the Japaneese and Chineese then I think someone will think all of our stuff is cookie cutter . I probably should have waited til I had more time for this , as it could be expressed better, but this is my quick entrance to your ? Just like every thing else it seems any area has it's quirks and jerks and methodology, but down deep it's all the same.
I think too that the local has something to do with it as well for te US and Europeans it is easier to travel to other areas where there are cultural and ecological differances as well as work ethics. Then there is time spent, when we get to be doing Bonsai for as long as the Japaneese and Chineese then I think someone will think all of our stuff is cookie cutter . I probably should have waited til I had more time for this , as it could be expressed better, but this is my quick entrance to your ? Just like every thing else it seems any area has it's quirks and jerks and methodology, but down deep it's all the same.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
OK let me see if I might make myself more clear.
This is NOT what I intended for this thread.
This thread is not about the BEST bonsai you have ever seen from ANY country.
What this is about is for someone that subscribes to this notion that the Japanese make trees in some mythical Japanese style, and the Europeans are doing their thing in a European style and the Americans are doing their thing in a quasi AmeriJapapean thing. Many are saying we need to be doing bonsai with an American style.
Now if Mr. Heath feels Mr. Lenz has captured the American feeling with wrapping a larch around a classical European Icon like a goddess, then he is entitled to his opinion. Further, If Mr. Heath also feels that Walters Neo Classically styled Japanese imported Maple styled in Europe somehow makes that maple scream Europe, then again he is entitled to his opinion.
Mr. Heath has bowed out of this thread. It is easy to see why.
I'm not saying his choices are bad or that the bonsai are bad. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel I am looking at a European maple or an American Larch. Either of these trees displayed could come from anywhere in the world. They do not exemplify any ethnicity at all in my opinion.
Just styling native trees from your homeland does not mean you are styling bonsai from your respective country. Many of the entries from the AoB Europe vs. North America contest looked Asian inspired to me. Many of the best trees from Europe that placed in the top twenty all looked very stylized and Asian to me. Naturalistic trees are not bound by country either. Making a tree look very natural just means you are making a tree look natural. Trees grow in every corner of the earth. Fir trees grow exactly the same in Japan as they do in Europe and America. I think I am pretty safe in saying an elm tree in Japan is going to look pretty much the same in America and Europe, provided we compare apples and apples. This is not about native materials. Many Japanese could still make a bonsai look Japanese from native materials from Australia, it's what they do.
The Europeans are making bonsai from native collected materials, they still are very Asian inspired and look very typical of Japanese traditional forms. The same can be said for America and Australia
So... I am still looking for that European styled tree and that American styled tree. Many say they are out there. Many say we need to develop our own style like the Europeans have. Show me. There are plenty of trees to link or post.
I have only seen two trees by a man I study with here in America that exemplify what could be considered an American look. Mind you these trees are native, and look like the trees in his home town. They don't look very Asian inspired per se, but they are following a rigid set of Asian rules in their mastery. The work of Katsumi Kinoshita, Monterey, CA.
And Bill S. thanks, I think you are closest of all the replies. I think you know what I am aiming for here.
This is NOT what I intended for this thread.
This thread is not about the BEST bonsai you have ever seen from ANY country.
What this is about is for someone that subscribes to this notion that the Japanese make trees in some mythical Japanese style, and the Europeans are doing their thing in a European style and the Americans are doing their thing in a quasi AmeriJapapean thing. Many are saying we need to be doing bonsai with an American style.
Now if Mr. Heath feels Mr. Lenz has captured the American feeling with wrapping a larch around a classical European Icon like a goddess, then he is entitled to his opinion. Further, If Mr. Heath also feels that Walters Neo Classically styled Japanese imported Maple styled in Europe somehow makes that maple scream Europe, then again he is entitled to his opinion.
Mr. Heath has bowed out of this thread. It is easy to see why.
I'm not saying his choices are bad or that the bonsai are bad. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel I am looking at a European maple or an American Larch. Either of these trees displayed could come from anywhere in the world. They do not exemplify any ethnicity at all in my opinion.
Just styling native trees from your homeland does not mean you are styling bonsai from your respective country. Many of the entries from the AoB Europe vs. North America contest looked Asian inspired to me. Many of the best trees from Europe that placed in the top twenty all looked very stylized and Asian to me. Naturalistic trees are not bound by country either. Making a tree look very natural just means you are making a tree look natural. Trees grow in every corner of the earth. Fir trees grow exactly the same in Japan as they do in Europe and America. I think I am pretty safe in saying an elm tree in Japan is going to look pretty much the same in America and Europe, provided we compare apples and apples. This is not about native materials. Many Japanese could still make a bonsai look Japanese from native materials from Australia, it's what they do.
The Europeans are making bonsai from native collected materials, they still are very Asian inspired and look very typical of Japanese traditional forms. The same can be said for America and Australia
So... I am still looking for that European styled tree and that American styled tree. Many say they are out there. Many say we need to develop our own style like the Europeans have. Show me. There are plenty of trees to link or post.
I have only seen two trees by a man I study with here in America that exemplify what could be considered an American look. Mind you these trees are native, and look like the trees in his home town. They don't look very Asian inspired per se, but they are following a rigid set of Asian rules in their mastery. The work of Katsumi Kinoshita, Monterey, CA.
And Bill S. thanks, I think you are closest of all the replies. I think you know what I am aiming for here.
Attachments
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
Irene,
Where did you get the idea that the word bonsai is the Japanese word for tree in a pot?
It is incorrect.
The Japanese word bonsai directly translates as "to plant into a shallow container (tray). The word "tree" is nowhere in that translation. This is a common misconception among westerners.
Bill
Where did you get the idea that the word bonsai is the Japanese word for tree in a pot?
It is incorrect.
The Japanese word bonsai directly translates as "to plant into a shallow container (tray). The word "tree" is nowhere in that translation. This is a common misconception among westerners.
Bill
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Going through the oldies.
I love this statement and it sums up my feelings exactly.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I believe that if you ( generically ) are worth your salt you will get to a point where the concept of Japanese Bonsai as the only legitimate bonsai image is simply wrong. This does not mean that I renounce the Japanese image, I embrace it, as far as how it is utilized in refining and developing an image in the way it dresses out the foliage pads, lays out the branches, and places them in areas that accentuate the desired style or form. After that it is how the overall image of a tree evolves through all of this that makes a bonsai. The classical styles, though important to learn, are none the less boring and uninteresting. There is no future there because everything within that pattern has already been done, numerous times. Personally I don't want just another imitation of some other bonsai sitting in some collection. It is important that the style or form of a tree be original and interesting in its own right, and not just an imitation of ten thousand trees just like it within the identical pattern done over and over again. How many times can first branch, second branch, back branch, apex, cause you excitement? It is predictable, and boring. It is however important that what you do looks correct and does not call into question all of the rules it has violated. Just remember if the tree is beautiful and compelling it follows the rules, it invents them.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
If I didn't know wether a Video was shot at Kokofu, Noelanders, or The US Nationals, I would be able to figure it out....
Green screen out the backgrounds....
I'd still be able to figure at least 6 out of 10 trees.
Always knowing Japanese trees.
And sometimes confusing shittier European trees with better American ones.
You can always tell An Aussie's tree Cuz they Suck!
And a tropics tree Cuz Frary could climb them, in the pot, or even repot them with the tree spade, Cuz they are so big!
But it sho ain't a myth.
Sorce
Green screen out the backgrounds....
I'd still be able to figure at least 6 out of 10 trees.
Always knowing Japanese trees.
And sometimes confusing shittier European trees with better American ones.
You can always tell An Aussie's tree Cuz they Suck!
And a tropics tree Cuz Frary could climb them, in the pot, or even repot them with the tree spade, Cuz they are so big!
But it sho ain't a myth.
Sorce
Pachycaul
Mame
OPINION FOLLOWS, IT CAN'T POSSIBLY HURT YOU, IT'S JUST OPINION.
There is mystery and wonder in every thing that is living, or has ever lived. Think dinosaur skeletons or ammonite fossils, or, since this is ostensibly a bonsai forum, petrified trees. These are artifacts of lives in time. We can see that there are commonalities in these artifacts with beings living in this moment. Some aspects are easily recognizable, other aspects are more subtle or hidden. My point here is that lifeforms express themselves in a myriad of shapes, sizes, chemical compositions, and manifestations shaped both by their internal coding and external environments.
Whether there are similarities or differences in the manner in which humans express that mystery and wonder has the same significance as the similarities or differences in their languages. They sound differently as speech and appear differently as writing, yet are accomplishing the same thing.
These artifacts of culture (spoken word, written word, tree in a pot) are also changing through time. Think cave art and emojis-hey, new word. Wait...emojis are cave art on the wall of this glowing device, speaking of wonder and mystery! All language serves the same function, to communicate with others.
Walter Pall has some excellent thoughts on copies of copies regarding styles of bonsai on his blog. (Don't have link @ my fingertips, sorry). Either we explore the mystery of the continually unfolding moment or we don't. Yes, but what does the tree want?
Whether we do it in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, English, German,Vietnamese, (and apologies to those left out) or Pigdin matters not one whit to the little miracle in the little pot unfolding before our very eyes in this very moment.
There is mystery and wonder in every thing that is living, or has ever lived. Think dinosaur skeletons or ammonite fossils, or, since this is ostensibly a bonsai forum, petrified trees. These are artifacts of lives in time. We can see that there are commonalities in these artifacts with beings living in this moment. Some aspects are easily recognizable, other aspects are more subtle or hidden. My point here is that lifeforms express themselves in a myriad of shapes, sizes, chemical compositions, and manifestations shaped both by their internal coding and external environments.
Whether there are similarities or differences in the manner in which humans express that mystery and wonder has the same significance as the similarities or differences in their languages. They sound differently as speech and appear differently as writing, yet are accomplishing the same thing.
These artifacts of culture (spoken word, written word, tree in a pot) are also changing through time. Think cave art and emojis-hey, new word. Wait...emojis are cave art on the wall of this glowing device, speaking of wonder and mystery! All language serves the same function, to communicate with others.
Walter Pall has some excellent thoughts on copies of copies regarding styles of bonsai on his blog. (Don't have link @ my fingertips, sorry). Either we explore the mystery of the continually unfolding moment or we don't. Yes, but what does the tree want?
Whether we do it in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, English, German,Vietnamese, (and apologies to those left out) or Pigdin matters not one whit to the little miracle in the little pot unfolding before our very eyes in this very moment.
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