Ply
Mame
Great post, thank you very much.
If I see correctly, at the top they only let current years shoots grow. When should you cut of the branches of the previous years growth?
Jwp advice on styling & timing
- Thread starter David wv
- Start date
If I see correctly, at the top they only let current years shoots grow. When should you cut of the branches of the previous years growth?
Japonicus
Masterpiece
Hi Adair
I did this, this Fall with the Acto Goyo I got from Steve and Sandy.
It responded very poorly with some dying off mostly needles browning that were green, low down,
and needed to be kept for new buds to form. The tree now will be leggy, to the point I called today
and asked if they still had the other one I didn't buy.
I chopped it from this
to this
I know this makes all those propagators out there cringe, but trashed the top.
If the other is still available I will perform such a chop over more years next time and not as drastic.
It's under the sunroom right now and I'm sick, so will get a shot up for you tomorrow of the current situation.
Maybe the deep shari was the reason for the poor response. I left more than a stub to jin later.
Yeah, I would say that was a bit too much.
In the fall.
Removing that extra foliage not only focuses the wood growth into the trunk, it also allows sunlight to reach the bottom of the trees. That foliage way down at the bottom is kept, but pruned back. It still needs strong sunlight to stay healthy, and keeping the apex foliage cut back keeps those bottom branches alive. Those bottom branches are what the bonsai will eventually designed from.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
This is the resulting fiasco of my chop on an otherwise nice looking JWP. Many interior branches down low on each of the 2 remainibg branches have died.
This is what i was shooting for.
To plant and grow out from here.
See, i didnt keep apex foliage.
Expensive lesson - $250.
Dont know if this would be good for me to learn approach grafting on or not now.
David wv
Sapling
Yeah I have been thinking about adding some charcoal to my mix, do you think it helps? I use to use the tractor supply safe t sorb (not sure if that's the same as turface or not, maybe it isn't fired as hot) and perlite but it seemed to break down very quickly, specially on the surface. Adding bark does help keep it from breaking down so quickly it seems. But I started using napa DE, sifted bark and grower/large size chicken grit and little to no perlite. It seems to do pretty good but time will tell. I wish there was a good source of reasonable priced pumice, haydite or lava for people in this area.
You are probably already aware but I've heard good things about adding micronutrients to the soil for pines. Julian Adams at http://www.adamsbonsai.com/ sells it, I've been meaning to get some for myself. If you are not already using something like that, it might be worth a try.
Just wondering for myself since we are in a similar climate, do you find grafted pines with jbp roots need extra winter protection here? Have you ever lost one from not protecting it well enough during the winter? I am just wondering if I need to keep babying this one.
David wv
Sapling
Do you think the issue with @Japonicus's tree was those two small branches directly below the cut point was not enough foliage to keep the flow of resources/sap through the trunk so it died back to where there was enough foliage? Meaning, make sure to cut back to a larger healthier branch, to keep a healthy sap flow the full length of the trunk? If that is the case, wonder why there was dieback on those two large healthy lower branches also?
David wv
Sapling
It does make you wonder if it would be best to keep the apex but remove the branches in the middle in between the apex and the highest branch you want to keep. Let it grow for a year or two. That way the lower branches that you are keeping will no longer be shaded at all and will gain strength. Then make the chop. That way you are still only rerouting those apex hormones once (that @Adair M talked about) and it wouldn't be such a drastic foliage removal at one time. I can see Adair M's point, you wouldn't want to do chops in stages cutting sections off from the top down. But I wonder if this other process of removing unwanted side branches and leaving the apex for another year or two would be a safer option? That is if you have to remove ⅔ or more of the foliage.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
Precisely
Really hoping the other one is still available. I saw a tree, in half of it that looked promising
but the graft was not as good as this one and included some reverse taper.
He tried to get me to buy them both...lol.
I get all of my soil components from bonsaijack.com
His "turface" is from the same company, but is graded to 1/4", Monto Clay.
The mix I use, the pine bark is the 1st component to break down yet you're adding it to extend life.
NAPA 8822 I bought was too fine, stayed soggy as a wet rag and too much of it would sift out of position.
This tends to create too damp and unpredictable a mix for me, even for my Japanese maple.
I just received my MICROMAX from Julian Adams yesterday.
Adair suggests 1TSP for pot, more for larger pots. It is acidic and does turn moss black, a long time.
I've also ordered his book on pines. Eager to get that. Julian told me when I asked hime about his
feeding recommendations and back budding, that he uses a high Phosphorous or middle number of the analysis that is
much higher than the nitrogen and potassium which help bloom and fruit production, ie, Bloom Booster type of fertiliser.
I do give Winter protection under my sunroom on the North side of the house.
Ambient light, fresh air and occasional watering plus neem oil sprayed a couple times.
When I had 20 or less projects, they got healed into the ground, pot and all each Winter.
1. My reason for playing with charcoal is because I thought it would be cool to have an organic component that doesn't break down. I'm not really interested in its purification properties. Just for the hell of it, I planted a maple cutting in pure charcoal. The maple seemed fine until August but then died. My other experiments involve either equal parts perlite, turface, and charcoal, or equal parts perlite, turface, charcoal, and pine bark. I DON'T recommend this for your bonsai - I'm just curious to see what it does to some of my trees. Years ago, a guy named Chris Johnston wrote on his blog that Boon does or used to use a tiny bit of horticultural charcoal and decomposed granite in his a/p/l mix.
2. I used to use equal parts chicken grit, turface, and pine bark. The reason I switched away from grit is that Graham Potter advised against using non porous aggregate because it acts as a heat sink and doesn't hold air or water. Interestingly, he also stated that it doesn't actually aid in drainage. His reasoning seemed sound to me, so I switched. That said, lots of folks seem to have good things about crushed granite.
3. Several years ago, I ordered 2 Zuisho starts from Julian Adams. He sold me a small container of his micronutrients. Over the phone, he told me that the white pine seedlings would do poorly or die if I didn't use the micronutrients. I used the micronutrients on the zuisho and killed them anyway. I don't think I've ever put any on my jwp grafts. I feel like I should be able to get those micros from my regular fertilizer regimen.
4. I've lost a lot of jwp grafted onto jbp. I did the grafts myself. Many of them lived for about three years and then kicked the bucket. The varieties were Ko Ko No E, Hagarumo, Aoba Jo, Ibo Can, and Glauca. The Ibo Can have thrived, but most of the others haven't done well. I don't think it's the winter temps, because my jbp almost always come through fine. About 12 years ago, we had some winter temperatures pushing -12 F. I lost some good jbp that I didn't have heeled in. My intuition tells me that maybe my soil stays too wet over the winter, but I just don't know.
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I can’t tell, exactly… I can see there was a trunk chop. But it also looks like there was more foliage than just that removed, too. Generally speaking, I would not remove more than 50% of the foliage at any one given time.
For one thing, the lower interior foliage was probadly shaded by the apex, and with so much top removed, it may have gotten sun scorched.
Another thing, what was the purpose of the Shari on the trunk? That may have interrupted some lifelines.
I think it’s a case of “too much, too fast”.
How much of the total amount of foliage did you remove?
Because I see the trunk chop, but there appear to be stubs of other branches where the chop is, too.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
I wasn't counting those stubs as "down low", but sure they factor into 75-80% reduction
evident in post 22.
This in general is why I posted my fiasco and a word of caution when it comes to "all at once".
I did it all at once, left a more than generous stub, yet I was wrong in so doing.
Like I say, ~$250 lesson.
discusmike
Omono
Jap white pine is not a good species to learn on, they are not very forgiving, should try black
So, when I said ‘do it all at once‘, I meant to do the trunk chop back to a major whorle. Not back to little twigs. They don’t carry enough hormone to take over the dominant apex position. And they both appear to be on the same side of the trunk. Typically on a chop, you want to cut back and leave two branches, one that will assume the role of trunk continuation, and the other to be a branch at that level. The stub should only be an inch or two. And it’s often carved down to be a peg. Which will eventually be removed. But, while it’s a peg, the heartwood will dry out, and the callous will start to roll over.
And yeah, 75 to 80% foliage reduction is far too much to do at once. It should be 25 to 30%.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
This was not your answer to the OP in post #17 about removing up to 75% (3/4) reduction/chop (post #16),
which is why I posted my shortfalls doing it, so there would be an example of what could happen. Just sharing.
Thanks, I will answer your input about my tree in the thread where I introduced the tree.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It should be noted that the maximum response for backbudding that trunk chop, will be new branches starting around previous whorls on the trunk.
I think it's a good idea because you can use all those new small branches in the design.
But if you wish to use current branches, you may want to cut during the least responsive time.
Of branches backbudding...
Ryan Neil says keep the branches healthy to get them to backbud, this works.
Best, cut back to branches.
More risky, cut back to buds.
Don't, cut back for buds.
Sorce
Taste
Mame
`
this is where im at with my jwp, i want to finish wiring it, but i need to just wait until after summer.
If what you need to wire is the little branches and twigs, you can wire them now. The heavy stuff is better wired in the fall.
