JWP Styling advice

[Mattmattmm]

You don’t leave the clamps in place. You use the jack to make the bend, and you secure the bend in place using guy wires. Once the guy is in place, holding the position, the jack is removed.

The guy wires might need to remain there for a year or two.

perhaps the best way is to insert a stainless steel screw at each end, and apply the pressure of the jack thru the screws. Then tie with the guy wire.

if after a month or so you decide you want more crunch, then reattach the jack, and crunch more, and tighten the guy.

You’ll know when the crunch has taken when you can push on the guy wire, and it’s not under full tension like it was when you first applied it.

Then cut the guy, and remove the screws. The screw holes should heal quickly.

The whole process will take several years for a serious “crunch”.

So if in September when the sap goes back down the tree and it starts to enter dormancy use the clamps and wire to perform a crunch in top and lower part of the tree, tighten as needed over the months it now too much to cause any damage. Take these out around February repot in March and then crunch again the following year.

does that sound like a good plan?

 

[SeanS]

Way off or getting closer?

More cowbell!

 

[Adair M]

Except, you don’t take the guy wires out in February. A bend “takes” by the tree putting on new layers of wood. That takes SEVERAL YEARS!

That’s why you use stainless steel screws as anchors. They can stay in there several years. Then, several years later, you can remove them and the tree had no damage. (Or minimal damage.)

 

[River's Edge]

More cowbell!

View attachment 310513

Adairs original suggestion indicated that it would be wise to get help for this process from a person experienced in using a jack to create heavy bends. That is important. The details of how the Jack is placed, buffered and used make the difference.
If I could add a few ideas.

It is best to create the bend in one session, even if allowing time for the tree to rest between tightening the jack. Putting on wood to heal and hold in the new position will take several years in the same position. Not very effective if being re bent and cracked every month or so!

An experienced person will be able to tell by fingertip control when the tension is getting too much and the bend should not go further! They will also know to leave the tree rest for a period of time before coming back and resuming, thus gaining further bend within the same session! It is important to listen carefully while adjusting the Jack Best to hear the small cracks just before the big one!

I have not tried using stainless steel screws as the pressure point for the bend. For the type of bends I typically use a jack for I think it would just drive the screw into the wood further or slip off due to such a small pressure point.

Rubber pads, buffer the jaws well and distribute the pressure! lots of useful material can be obtained from used rubber vehicle floor mats or like. For the Jaws on the jack one can also affix short section of rubber hose as buffers! Stainless steel screws do work very well for guy wire anchor points.

Hope these additional ideas help.

 

[Adair M]

Adairs original suggestion indicated that it would be wise to get help for this process from a person experienced in using a jack to create heavy bends. That is important. The details of how the Jack is placed, buffered and used make the difference.
If I could add a few ideas.

It is best to create the bend in one session, even if allowing time for the tree to rest between tightening the jack. Putting on wood to heal and hold in the new position will take several years in the same position. Not very effective if being re bent and cracked every month or so!

An experienced person will be able to tell by fingertip control when the tension is getting too much and the bend should not go further! They will also know to leave the tree rest for a period of time before coming back and resuming, thus gaining further bend within the same session! It is important to listen carefully while adjusting the Jack Best to hear the small cracks just before the big one!

I have not tried using stainless steel screws as the pressure point for the bend. For the type of bends I typically use a jack for I think it would just drive the screw into the wood further or slip off due to such a small pressure point.

Rubber pads, buffer the jaws well and distribute the pressure! lots of useful material can be obtained from used rubber vehicle floor mats or like. For the Jaws on the jack one can also affix short section of rubber hose as buffers! Stainless steel screws do work very well for guy wire anchor points.

Hope these additional ideas help.

I have to admit, the first time I saw guy wires attached to screws in a tree, I thought I was a bit barbaric! But over time, I have warmed to the idea, and I’ve done it myself. For doing a really heavy bend, which will require the guy wire to be in place for a couple years, it’s a far better approach. Even padding with rubber will scar a branch if it’s left on for a couple years. A screw hole is tiny, and once removed, it will be fully healed in 6 months. It IS a better way, and the it’s how the high end nurseries are doing bends in Japan.

 

[River's Edge]

I have to admit, the first time I saw guy wires attached to screws in a tree, I thought I was a bit barbaric! But over time, I have warmed to the idea, and I’ve done it myself. For doing a really heavy bend, which will require the guy wire to be in place for a couple years, it’s a far better approach. Even padding with rubber will scar a branch if it’s left on for a couple years. A screw hole is tiny, and once removed, it will be fully healed in 6 months. It IS a better way, and the it’s how the high end nurseries are doing bends in Japan.

I think that was my first thought as well!
I have been using the coated deck screws with success! Easier to find than stainless steel.
Another key advantage is the ability to place the screw exactly where you want it, instead of the closest jin or other nearby tie point.

 

[sorce]

I think you should use a year to wire the folaige out of the way of these bends....if you must make them.

Seems all the folaige is going to be crunched into a ball.

Will there be any branches on the back side at all?

The lower trunk also has this subtle twisty movement, seems will be quite jarring to suddenly have great sweeping bends.

I still think pruning smaller is a better option. Unless you can get that bend to twist a little like the trunk, and make it less severe.

I feel like that clamp tool...provided this "slot machine" like ringing with lights, and we started piling quarters into this "machine", without thinking of the actual result.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

I think you should use a year to wire the folaige out of the way of these bends....if you must make them.

Seems all the folaige is going to be crunched into a ball.

Will there be any branches on the back side at all?

The lower trunk also has this subtle twisty movement, seems will be quite jarring to suddenly have great sweeping bends.

I still think pruning smaller is a better option. Unless you can get that bend to twist a little like the trunk, and make it less severe.

I feel like that clamp tool...provided this "slot machine" like ringing with lights, and we started piling quarters into this "machine", without thinking of the actual result.

Sorce

The tree requires compaction, so a combination of some pruning and shortening of branches can retain more branching and options for design while achieving the goal. In this case compacting the upper trunk may be a very viable option. Not easy to decide without the tree in front of the artist rather than a picture.
The " clamp tool" simply makes bending safer with better results! It takes years to grow more branching where required, and can take an hour or two to reposition the trunk section and branches for compactness and solve design issues! Wire alone cannot always accomplish that.

 

[sorce]

The tree requires compaction, so a combination of some pruning and shortening of branches can retain more branching and options for design while achieving the goal. In this case compacting the upper trunk may be a very viable option. Not easy to decide without the tree in front of the artist rather than a picture.
The " clamp tool" simply makes bending safer with better results! It takes years to grow more branching where required, and can take an hour or two to reposition the trunk section and branches for compactness and solve design issues! Wire alone cannot always accomplish that.

What are your thoughts on that first little beautiful right branch?
IMO the big one is only going to thicken that already a bit too thicker trunk.

If there are equally good small branches up the length, I would consider looking at this in the next "size up" as far as scale goes. A 100ft tree rather than a 50ft tree.

I think these bends are trying too hard. IMO that current apical branch is never even part of the design. seems a lot of effort to move it.

I see something flowing to the left, as easy as the trunk does, with that little first branch starting as the final first anchoring branch now.

That little branch is a "gimme" if you ask me. a game changer. The entire tree becomes a bonsai, instead of a twisted shrub.

I didn't like this tree until I saw that little branch.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

What are your thoughts on that first little beautiful right branch?
IMO the big one is only going to thicken that already a bit too thicker trunk.

If there are equally good small branches up the length, I would consider looking at this in the next "size up" as far as scale goes. A 100ft tree rather than a 50ft tree.

I think these bends are trying too hard. IMO that current apical branch is never even part of the design. seems a lot of effort to move it.

I see something flowing to the left, as easy as the trunk does, with that little first branch starting as the final first anchoring branch now.

That little branch is a "gimme" if you ask me. a game changer. The entire tree becomes a bonsai, instead of a twisted shrub.

I didn't like this tree until I saw that little branch.

Sorce

Could you help out by indicating which picture in the thread I should reference first Is it safe to assume the first one in the thread?

 

[Mattmattmm]

I have attached a few more pictures showing more of the trunk and the back.
Thankyou for all the information so far, it’s all really helping me formulate a yearly plan

 

[River's Edge]

I have attached a few more pictures showing more of the trunk and the back.
Thankyou for all the information so far, it’s all really helping me formulate a yearly plan

You asked for styling advice and the topic switched to the possibility of a bend for compaction, then off to how to use the Bonsai jack correctly!
If we go back to the original question, the starting point should be an assessment of the tree's strengths and weaknesses that will be taken into account when designing. What is your perception of the tree?

 

[Mattmattmm]

You asked for styling advice and the topic switched to the possibility of a bend for compaction, then off to how to use the Bonsai jack correctly!
If we go back to the original question, the starting point should be an assessment of the tree's strengths and weaknesses that will be taken into account when designing. What is your perception of the tree?

I like the movement through the trunk as it flows nicely so when the little left branch come out it balances well. I really like the lower trunk and I think it’s a great base to Work from

I do think it is starting to look a little tall and I think the gap between the apex and the lower right branch looks pretty large so I’d like to direct some branch growth to fill some of that area in. The little left branch is also starting to grow up and I don’t like where it could potentially end up as I think it will interfere with the apex and the flow

 

[sorce]

Could you help out by indicating which picture in the thread I should reference first Is it safe to assume the first one in the thread?

I almost forgot this, sorry.

This is that branch.

I would have like a 20 year plan to make the tree from just this growth.

The segment proportions are wonderful, and you can basically move to making branching.

This is what I look for in stuff though, if it can take branches where it is, I think this one can, but small.



Sorce

 

[sorce]

I think we have taken, "use everything you can", to this extreme of using too much.

The other extreme is thinking we can jump right into this smaller size, we have to go slow.

The pendulum must stop.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

I think we have taken, "use everything you can", to this extreme of using too much.

The other extreme is thinking we can jump right into this smaller size, we have to go slow.

The pendulum must stop.

Sorce

What needs to “stop” is this wild speculation you make with no practical experience. Seriously, dude. This is a dwarf JWP. They grow at a snail’s pace under the best conditions! Which is one of the reasons they cost as much as they do.

What the OP paid for was all the JWP foliage! Of course he wants to use as much of it as possible!

An analogy of what you are suggesting is to buy a Ferrari, and determine that you really like the right door handle, so keep that, throw the rest away! Rebuild everything from the right door handle.

That’s simply insane.

 

[River's Edge]

I like the movement through the trunk as it flows nicely so when the little left branch come out it balances well. I really like the lower trunk and I think it’s a great base to Work from

I do think it is starting to look a little tall and I think the gap between the apex and the lower right branch looks pretty large so I’d like to direct some branch growth to fill some of that area in. The little left branch is also starting to grow up and I don’t like where it could potentially end up as I think it will interfere with the apex and the flow

Based on your comments, I suggest that you wire the tree this fall and place the branches where you feel they should be and then assess. This will open the structure and possibly reveal some additional ideas! The tree has a fair size already and the consideration of removing or compacting branches should be taken over time.

 

[River's Edge]

I almost forgot this, sorry.

This is that branch.

I would have like a 20 year plan to make the tree from just this growth.

The segment proportions are wonderful, and you can basically move to making branching.

This is what I look for in stuff though, if it can take branches where it is, I think this one can, but small.

View attachment 310821

Sorce

I understand the point you are making. Applicability in this case is another issue!
Based on the tree I would seek to enhance what exists and minimize the areas that might concern the OP. They have not identified any major areas of concern to address so it becomes a matter of enhancing the tree, not rebuilding.
I would likely take the approach that incorporates a lower pad near the graft to aid the transition, using the smaller branch you have identified that flows in to a larger pad on the lower branch. An important branch to have in that place! IMO
I suspect that a carefully placed bend or two would shorten the main trunk line and reposition the top for a more compact tree.
The selection of front to minimize the bit of reverse taper in the base and maximize the nebari. ( not known by the pictures presented )
Keeping in mind the movement and flow of the trunk. Always a combination.
Drawing lines can be very misleading minus this information IMO.

 

[sorce]

What the OP paid for was all the JWP foliage! Of course he wants to use as much of it as possible!

Real Bonsai Artists buy Trunks not folaige.

Everyone knows this.

Always just about money with you ain't it?

Why you always quote stuff you don't understand?

Sorce

 

[PiñonJ]

@Mattmattmm, before committing to major bends, I would play with the planting angle to get a more interesting trunk line. For example, try propping up the right side of the pot about 35 degrees to give interesting movement to the left. Once you find the best front and planting angle, style the tree in that position (at the appropriate time) and keep it propped at that angle, at least during the growing season, until it’s time to re-pot it.