Mile High Bonsai

[grouper52]

Walter Pall at his best, especially his points about "permission to murder," and that one learns bonsai first and collecting as one of the last things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtUnzfsPlWM

 

[rockm]

FWIW, asking about collecting on a Web forum is great, but it is really no substitute for actual hands-on dig with an experienced collector. You can research until you eyes bleed, but everything you read will not be applicable with a living respiring, 300-year old plant you have decided would look good in your backyard .

THe best advice for beginner collectors is to go with someone who knows what they're doing--find a club that collects regularly. SEE it being done, learnhow to think on the fly when things go wrong with the collection --not enough roots, BIG ugly rocks, soil so loose that it inadvertently bareroots the plant, etc. You can't learn those things from the Web or books.

Also finding and digging a tree are only the first battle in a long war. You have to learn aftercare for the species you've dug up. The aftercare period can last from a year to ten, depending on the species and age of the tree. This period claims more tree lives than the initial excavation.

FWIW, bonsai is usually completely alien to most experienced gardeners. What we do sometimes makes long-time gardeners shriek in terror and loathing...We don't even use "dirt"

 

[therianthrope]

If you start with something pre-bonsai, it'll allow you to grow your knowledge with the plant. You'll learn a lot more than if you start with a "finished" product anyway. There is also the standard (store) nursery stock that can be rewarding if you spend the time to find the "right" stock. It seems like this might be right up your alley, sort of a challenge to hunt it down...

You've hit the nail on the head, JudyB. I really don't want to start with a finished product or even a started product, I want to do the shaping beyond what nature has already done, and the hunt definitely has a lot of appeal to me, but I do want something with some character to go off of... which is why I thought collecting would be perfect, however I can see where hunting nurseries could be rewarding as well if you find "the one".

Thanks for the link to groupers post (and thanks, grouper, for the post)!!

When I started collecting, I read everything I could, but I also found that people who do collect often don't want newbies along. Many of these folks are making money from collecting, and don't want to share good sites. I've also offered to share sites I've found if people wanted to come along, but I never got anyone to accept.

So, I sympathize with the desire to try on your own. My advice is, get permission, start with pines (not junipers), collect only off of rocky outcroppings, and start with a few trees that are younger/smaller/not the best your site has to offer. Yes, you will probably kill some. Read about collecting from Walter Pall's site. Get the DVD on collecting from Andy Smith's site.

Go have a good day walking in the mountains.

Brian

Thanks for the input, Brian. Lots of good names to look for.

If you ever feel like taking a noob/student along on a collecting trip, shoot me a PM! Or I guess you could be in the non-CO Rockies...? I'm not trying to make money off of the hobby, I just thought it would be inexpensive, relaxing, expressive, interesting and rewarding (as well as exercising the patience). Pretty much the opposite of my job.

 

[therianthrope]

It sounds like the biggest thing to learn is the after care.

This was actually my impression and assumption going into it. Not that I was taking the collecting aspect lightly.

I'll second all those that said you should seek out collectors and/or local clubs so that you can learn from people that know what they are doing.

I suppose I should just ask the club, but if I joined the local club, do you think anyone would take me out collecting when the season rolls around next spring? I think I just realized another reason why I'm hung up on collecting from the wild is it would mean the most to me that way, aside from raising it from a seed, which I don't know that I want to get into yet...

My thoughts were that for most people in the clubs (especially experienced collectors), it's more than a hobby so I would either not be welcome (as the posts here seem to echo) or I would be paying for the service when I can't afford to.

Again, thanks for the input mc!

 

[jk_lewis]

but if I joined the local club, do you think anyone would take me out collecting when the season rolls around next spring?

If you're nice.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

*Dabs salt on the wound*

 

[rockm]

"but I also found that people who do collect often don't want newbies along"

This is the exact opposite of what I've found. Depends on the club and the individualal you're talking to. Some clubs have "sponsored" digs at specific sites every spring, some sign people up to go, etc.

Another FWIW, if you're beginning collecting on your own, start with deciduous trees. They're much more forgiving and easily available than conifers.

Also, ever think about starting with already collected rough stock? There is some pretty great collected ponderosa stock out there for not alot of money--

here's a start:
http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/goldenarrowbonsai.com/Home.html

I've bought trees from Andy Smith the owner of the site. He's been digging trees for a in very long time. He's the most visible collector of Western conifers on the web. There are others.

 

[therianthrope]

Also, ever think about starting with already collected rough stock? There is some pretty great collected ponderosa stock out there for not alot of money--

here's a start:
http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/goldenarrowbonsai.com/Home.html

The thing is, I have next to no budget for this (which is why I was looking at collecting, intially: seemed like the cheapest way to get into it). I've been convinced to not try collecting on my own, but might have to put my ear to the ground for some sponsored trips or the like. For now I guess I'm looking at going to nurseries and looking for the most undesirable landscaping stock around

 

[rockm]

Thing is, you've happened upon a deceptively "inexpensive" way to get into bonsai. Collecting is not really all that cheap. Tools, soil, container, gas, time, labor, permits all cost money and add up. The trees just seem "free." They're really not. There is also a considerable learning curve even for those familiar with trees, but not bonsai. Collectible trees are also not all that common--some have roots that go to China, or have root systems so diffuse you can't find any feeder roots within 20 feet of the trunk. Trees worth collecting are even rarer.

The cheap stock at nurseries can be almost dead or damaged. There can be some deals in the "sales" area, but having crawled my share of nursuries over the years, I can say selection is usually extremely limited in those sections. You have to be lucky. You also have to know what you're looking at healthwise and bonsaiwise. A $20 maple may seem like a "deal," but a root system that will take 5 years to correct and get into a reasonable container isn't so much a deal, as it is a frustration...Not saying nurseries can't be a great source, just don't go expecting to find something worth bonsai-ing on your first visit. Patience can have a big pay-off.

Not really trying to be negative, just showing the reality of what you may be up against.

Joining a club can alleviate some of this, as they have already done the legwork for sources. They can also be the source themselves, as many have annual auctions and sales where members sell off unwanted stock (some they've worked and want to sell to move on to better material, or they've just got too many trees). I've seen $1,000 trees go for $100, $50 trees for for $5 at these events...

 

[jk_lewis]

Not to mention that club members occasionally will take pity on a newcomer and give him or her a tree or two to get started with . . .

 

[therianthrope]

Thing is, you've happened upon a deceptively "inexpensive" way to get into bonsai. Collecting is not really all that cheap. Tools, soil, container, gas, time, labor, permits all cost money and add up. The trees just seem "free." They're really not. There is also a considerable learning curve even for those familiar with trees, but not bonsai.

I have the tools (would have to get a pick from my dad, but it is available to me), I have access to a spectrum of soil from river rock to clay, container I would have to get anyway - and was rather looking forward to building a grow box, I get up into the Mtns regularly anyway so the gas is moot, and the time and labor are all a part of the fun and the journey. The learning is something I want and have to do anyway (which is why I started 6+ mos. in advance). The Forestry dig permit is all that I could identify as a "real" cost, which compared to buying it from a retailer is vastly cheaper (and more fun and personal).

Not particularly looking forward to nursery crawling, but would be excited to find something I like. So I'm just going to have to do it for now.

Not really trying to be negative, just showing the reality of what you may be up against.

As much as I am an optimist, I am also a realist, so I always appreciate the input.

Despite not having a tree, it does seem like joining a Club is a good step for multiple reasons. Though I think I will wait until I at least have something to take and use for reference and study.

 

[rockm]

"Not to mention that club members occasionally will take pity on a newcomer and give him or her a tree or two to get started with . ."

There's that too. I've been the recipient of such trees.

 

[rockm]

"Though I think I will wait until I at least have something to take and use for reference and study."

Why? If you go before you acquire something, all the better. You will learn how and what to select before you make an investment. Seems if money's tight, buying a tree before exploring all this could forestall inadvertent expense...

 

[JudyB]

Did you check out the post about the Cali swap meet? If I were close enough to drive, I'd be there for sure. Looks like Smoke will be bringing some good stuff...

 

[therianthrope]

"Though I think I will wait until I at least have something to take and use for reference and study."

Why? If you go before you acquire something, all the better. You will learn how and what to select before you make an investment. Seems if money's tight, buying a tree before exploring all this could forestall inadvertent expense...

I guess I have no idea what goes on at a bonsai club, but it seems like showing up without a tree would be like showing up to class without books. I have done quite a bit of looking in to how and what to look for when buying, and aesthetically I know what kind of tree I want (long-needle pine, a ponderosa was my intent), so if I can find something I like and it's a good deal, I might as well get it.

Did you check out the post about the Cali swap meet? If I were close enough to drive, I'd be there for sure. Looks like Smoke will be bringing some good stuff...

Unfortunately not close enough.

 

[PaulH]

If you're serious about learning bonsai, JOIN A CLUB! Do it before you buy your first tree. Clubs are about learning and sharing knowledge to help everyone have better quality bonsai. The most common issue I see that discourages beginners is that they try to make bonsai with inferior material. Junk will always be junk. Please take the time to learn what makes a good tree before wasting your time and money. Most clubs offer beginner classes and workshops. You won't regret taking advantage of them.

Paul

 

[rockm]

"I guess I have no idea what goes on at a bonsai club, but it seems like showing up without a tree would be like showing up to class without books."
a
Not true. No one will give a darn. In fact, arriving WITHOUT a tree will probably be refreshing for club members. The "help, my bonsai is dieing, please show me why" is a pretty common entry line.

"I have done quite a bit of looking in to how and what to look for when buying, and aesthetically I know what kind of tree I want (long-needle pine, a ponderosa was my intent), so if I can find something I like and it's a good deal, I might as well get it."

THis is might otherwise be known as a closed mind, or a set of preconceived notions. You have chosen one of the most difficult species to work with, yet you don't have much of an idea of what bonsai is all about yet. Owning a bonsai is the same as owning a pet--in the case of collected stock it can be akin to owning a rare wild animal. You are assuming responsibility for a living thing. Having a more than just a basic aesthetic appreciation of it before committing to it is in both your interests . You wouldn't really be a responsible pet owner by buying a salt water tropical fish, THEN going to a club and asking how to set up the aquarium...

 

[therianthrope]

THis is might otherwise be known as a closed mind, or a set of preconceived notions. You have chosen one of the most difficult species to work with, yet you don't have much of an idea of what bonsai is all about yet. Owning a bonsai is the same as owning a pet--in the case of collected stock it can be akin to owning a rare wild animal. You are assuming responsibility for a living thing. Having a more than just a basic aesthetic appreciation of it before committing to it is in both your interests . You wouldn't really be a responsible pet owner by buying a salt water tropical fish, THEN going to a club and asking how to set up the aquarium...

Well, what interests me, visually, isn't a preconceived notion or a product of a closed mind, it's my taste and aesthetic. And I have been told pines are difficult, but to quote Ray Parker Jr.; "I ain't afraid of no ghost".

I'm not going to start with a collected tree, so fortunately/unfortunately my first bonsai may be more akin to the monkey they experiment with make-up on than that rare wild animal, but I've got to start somewhere and it's going to be with what interests me.

And as mentioned before, I have started this inquiry something like 6+ mos before I ever intended to start styling anything, there is a reason I am here on this forum and why I have bought and borrowed books: I'm learning how to set-up the aquarium right now. So including the botany from my academic education and being a horticulturist of more than a decade, I have and will have "more than just a basic aesthetic appreciation".

 

[tmmason10]

Well, what interests me, visually, isn't a preconceived notion or a product of a closed mind, it's my taste and aesthetic. And I have been told pines are difficult, but to quote Ray Parker Jr.; "I ain't afraid of no ghost".

I'm not going to start with a collected tree, so fortunately/unfortunately my first bonsai may be more akin to the monkey they experiment with make-up on than that rare wild animal, but I've got to start somewhere and it's going to be with what interests me.

And as mentioned before, I have started this inquiry something like 6+ mos before I ever intended to start styling anything, there is a reason I am here on this forum and why I have bought and borrowed books: I'm learning how to set-up the aquarium right now. So including the botany from my academic education and being a horticulturist of more than a decade, I have and will have "more than just a basic aesthetic appreciation".

You are incredibly pompous, but it is good that you are doing this much research and have horticulural knowledge before you end up purchasing something. You will avoid the "help my tree is dying" thing if you read and study up on what youre doing. Just don't let your confidence turn to ignorance and take heed to all the advice you receive on this forum, that is why it is here. In any rate, if you are setting up an aquarium you must be looking for tropicals to grow, and from what I have heard Wigert's has some great stuff for the price. Haven't purchased from there yet but have hear all positives about them.

 

[rockm]

"Well, what interests me, visually, isn't a preconceived notion or a product of a closed mind, it's my taste and aesthetic. And I have been told pines are difficult, but to quote Ray Parker Jr.; "I ain't afraid of no ghost".

"but I've got to start somewhere and it's going to be with what interests me."

Didn't say otherwise. Just saying entering the hobby with such a narrow view of what you're after could blind you to other possibilities. Bonsai has a very very steep learning curve that frustrates many people. You're set on increasing that curve. And FWIW, if you're limited to spending $40 or less, pines are a very expensive taste. A $40 pine probably isn't going to satisfy your aesthetics for very long.

Considering other avenues can lead to more satisfying places on the way to the final goal of pine nirvanna...