My Contribution to "American Bonsai"

[Vin]

Was not offended in the slightest!
Was just asking the question, because I didn't understand.

That's cool.

I've read through all the posts in this thread and didn't see where anyone asked if there was any conversation at BSF about your displays invoking an Americanistic approach to the art. Was there?

 

[A Random User]

That's cool.

I've read through all the posts in this thread and didn't see where anyone asked if there was any conversation at BSF about your displays invoking an Americanistic approach to the art. Was there?

Did you get a chance to come by and see the exhibition? If not, it was really good! I don't like this new approach to not being able to photograph trees... because of putting out a book. Kinda sucks... like going on a trip and people asking about what you did and saw, and not being able to show anybody anything... That is the best part seeing what people's shows in other parts of the states and the work that is going on... kinda stifles the whole scene!

As to your question, there was some discussion regarding it... most regarding raising the whole scene and quality of display to a new level... had a lot of people comment on what they felt was the "professionalism" of both displays. Which from what i can gather by what they were saying and their compliments... that i can piece together, is that they liked not only the creativity of the two pieces, but also how well thought out they were. Had a lot of folks tell me the stories worked well, and that they were blown away by them!

So, pretty positive feedback coming out of the show. Had a chance to talk to Bjorn, he said he liked the Tea a lot... told me had heard I made everything for the display, and Saud I did an awesome job, so that was cool!

I think the point that is seems to be getting missed with them is that sure I am questioning what can and cannot be done and perhaps creating something that is a tad bit unconventional... but, first and foremost it is still about the trees... and the trees were picked for the exhibition and judged on the merit that they are good trees, period. In fact, the pictures entered to get into the event were one's without the display shown. They had no idea of what the displays were going to look like, and in fact... once they did, I had to fight with the organizer of the exhibition to have them displayed! Which, in the end worked out for the best, seeing that even they had to admit once they saw them, that they were an excellent addition to the exhibit!

For some perhaps, they are too busy... for others I think there is the concept that they don't follow the norms of what they have come to expect of a display... which I still to this day don't quite understand, seeing that everything used in the display is nothing "foreign" to display...

The scroll seems to be the main sticking point, for most... but, I am not the first to of moved a scroll to behind a tree, not the first to of used a larger scroll... mine is the first to of perhaps continued the scroll down to ontop of the table, to of formed the mat as well, I guess? But, should not be to far of a reach for people...

Was going to post up more images of the scroll and the display and discuss them in more detail, but have been to busy traveling to do so... just got back today! Perhaps if some want, I still can? But, where the whole design originated from fir the two trees, is that I hate the blue neon background that BSF uses to display trees in front of... they have a tendency to make the trees look like crap, and I didn't want my work to look like crap... so, from my end, not really any "out of the box" thinking here... just trying to do the best work that I could!

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Nice work on the displays Stacey! The first one, with the tea really reminds me of a Disney's Peter Pan/princess and the frog scene, which I think is really cool!
Thanks for showing, and excellent job on the pot of the tea! If you hadn't said the rocks are fake, I had never noticed.

 

[A Random User]

Thought I would post up some more pics...

Also, wanted to add that the Scrolls for both displays I hand painted... the whole thing, not just the center images... So the fabric patterns as well. I used a gold leaf paint which is really nice when the light hits it because it reflects. The stand I constructed as well, carved the Bat w/ Moon Motif on the front and back center plates as well as Decoupaged the top with images that I thought a Chinese Fisherman might adorn his table with. Finally, to finish my trees story, the image in the picture on the scroll is of a Chinese Fisherman with foggy clouds behind and the Moon, thus why the addition of the bat on the stand.

 

[A Random User]

A few more...

 

[mcpesq817]

Way too gaudy and busy for me. The backdrops take the eye away from the trees.

The traditional Japanese 3-point display provides simplicity and subtle references to accentuate the trees and the feelings they evoke. That principle should be universal, regardless of what elements are included in the display. Look at Ryan Neil's recent exhibitions - the focus remains the tree. Your backdrops however completely do the opposite. I can understand wanting to make it "American," but man, this is just painful on the eyes and doesn't do the trees any justice. I also fail to see how this is "American," unless you think kitschy, garish and gaudy are American qualities.

Just being honest!

 

[A Random User]

Way too gaudy and busy for me. The backdrops take the eye away from the trees.

The traditional Japanese 3-point display provides simplicity and subtle references to accentuate the trees and the feelings they evoke. That principle should be universal, regardless of what elements are included in the display. Look at Ryan Neil's recent exhibitions - the focus remains the tree. Your backdrops however completely do the opposite. I can understand wanting to make it "American," but man, this is just painful on the eyes and doesn't do the trees any justice. I also fail to see how this is "American," unless you think kitschy, garish and gaudy are American qualities.

Just being honest!

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot all about posting up close-ups of the Ficus... Wanted to make sure I got them listed as well!

Again with this display I created and made everything except for the pot. I was asked to write down what the story for this tree was as well, in the submittal letter for the exhibition. What I wrote down was that this tree because of its helmet head and its armored look, reminded me of a Samurai Warrior standing guard. So, everything within the display was geared towards telling this story... The patterns I painted for the scroll are common patterns found in Japanese Samurai outfits, I purposely chose colors of red and orange to signify the feeling of war, of aggression. And chose for the image to do a woodsy campfire scene, with troops gathered around the fires blaze and of course I had to include helmets on them to match the tree. Leading down the image is a path leading to my tree, which tied the whole composition together.

The stump I used for a stand, reminds me of stump one might find in the woods, which would make a perfect resting place for anyone standing guard. The accent plant and its pot if you look close is a root coming off of the stump and protruding back up above the soil line, with a fern growing out of one of its cerevisiaes. The fern when displayed, had quite a few of the larger pieces removed, so its overall composition was quite smaller, and more to the scale with the tree.

Lastly, wanted to point out another feature that worked really well too... and that is that there is an ariel root coming down on the left hand side of the tree that when displayed with the stand, lined up perfectly with smaller left trunk of the stand and form a really cool continuation along with the main trunk of the tree, down through the stand... which worked out really nice!

 

[A Random User]

Some more images...

 

[A Random User]

Sorry, forgot to include this picture, which shows how well the stand worked with the tree!
In it you will see that the ariel root coming down the left hand side of the tree, really lines up well with the smaller trunk on the stand, as well does the whole trunk and the main portion of the stand... turned out pretty cool! I like how the tree almost looks as though it just continues down through the stand. Also, wanted to add that the finish on the stand took a very long time to get right, but I really love the way it and the root pot of the accent plant turned out.

 

[A Random User]

Nice work on the displays Stacey! The first one, with the tea really reminds me of a Disney's Peter Pan/princess and the frog scene, which I think is really cool!
Thanks for showing, and excellent job on the pot of the tea! If you hadn't said the rocks are fake, I had never noticed.

Thanks, I appreciate it! Will be doing some more pots soon for some of my other trees that i will incorporate a rock planting into as well...

I have a couple of trees that call for somewhat of an unusual design due to their new planting angles. This pot was kind of a jumping off point for me... I have had quite a few inquiries into folks wanting me to make pots for them as well... so might start doing them and selling...we will see? For the moment I am really however wanting to just do my work and show of my vision! Have heard a lot about everyone else's over the years...

 

[rockm]

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot all about posting up close-ups of the Ficus... Wanted to make sure I got them listed as well!

Again with this display I created and made everything except for the pot. I was asked to write down what the story for this tree was as well, in the submittal letter for the exhibition. What I wrote down was that this tree because of its helmet head and its armored look, reminded me of a Samurai Warrior standing guard. So, everything within the display was geared towards telling this story... The patterns I painted for the scroll are common patterns found in Japanese Samurai outfits, I purposely chose colors of red and orange to signify the feeling of war, of aggression. And chose for the image to do a woodsy campfire scene, with troops gathered around the fires blaze and of course I had to include helmets on them to match the tree. Leading down the image is a path leading to my tree, which tied the whole composition together.

The stump I used for a stand, reminds me of stump one might find in the woods, which would make a perfect resting place for anyone standing guard. The accent plant and its pot if you look close is a root coming off of the stump and protruding back up above the soil line, with a fern growing out of one of its cerevisiaes. The fern when displayed, had quite a few of the larger pieces removed, so its overall composition was quite smaller, and more to the scale with the tree.

Lastly, wanted to point out another feature that worked really well too... and that is that there is an ariel root coming down on the left hand side of the tree that when displayed with the stand, lined up perfectly with smaller left trunk of the stand and form a really cool continuation along with the main trunk of the tree, down through the stand... which worked out really nice!


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I guess I'm left a bit confused. The aim of this is to be "American" bonsai with references to our culture? Why does the composition use references to Samurai, Japanese armor, and feudal Japanese history? A bonsai's design reflecting a Samurai's suit of armor is a very Japanese thing. I've seen the design of Needle Juniper bonsai, with their layered, tiered branching, get the same comparison...

Honest, I'm not trying to be a dick. I just find this a little hard to understand given the "American" bonsai thing.

 

[mcpesq817]

I'm also curious as to why you are trying really hard to bring in war images to an art form that is mostly about nature and peaceful tranquility.

 

[Paradox]

I guess I'm left a bit confused. The aim of this is to be "American" bonsai with references to our culture? Why does the composition use references to Samurai, Japanese armor, and feudal Japanese history? A bonsai's design reflecting a Samurai's suit of armor is a very Japanese thing. I've seen the design of Needle Juniper bonsai, with their layered, tiered branching, get the same comparison...

Honest, I'm not trying to be a dick. I just find this a little hard to understand given the "American" bonsai thing.

I think his point is that it is "American bonsai" because he is an American in America doing bonsai.

 

[rockm]

I think his point is that it is "American bonsai" because he is an American in America doing bonsai.

got it

 

[A Random User]

I guess I'm left a bit confused. The aim of this is to be "American" bonsai with references to our culture? Why does the composition use references to Samurai, Japanese armor, and feudal Japanese history? A bonsai's design reflecting a Samurai's suit of armor is a very Japanese thing. I've seen the design of Needle Juniper bonsai, with their layered, tiered branching, get the same comparison...

Honest, I'm not trying to be a dick. I just find this a little hard to understand given the "American" bonsai thing.

No problem!
I am questioning the whole concept of what is American Bonsai...
For some, it quite literally has to be native material, in a American theme, I am asking why?
And if this then is to be the case what constitutes a American theme?

For me, American Bonsai it is all about the Scene... what people are doing in America... thus American Bonsai.
I have argued the point throughout this thread, that no matter how one tries to reproduce a piece of art
in the likeness of another culture, it will never be that culture. Because the Artist will always have ties to
their own culture and it will thus be reflected in their work... So, even though someone's trees in America might look to be Japanese
or Chinese, they will never actually be this, and will always have noticeable difference...

 

[A Random User]

QUOTE="mcpesq817, post: 361799, member: 850"]I'm also curious as to why you are trying really hard to bring in war images to an art form that is mostly about nature and peaceful tranquility.[/QUOTE]
Because I can.
See what, you have missed with your previous rant, and negative comments regarding my work, is that it is not up to you to decide what is and what is not Bonsai. Not up to anyone... Bonsai does not have to be peaceful and tranquil, it can be what ever the Artist wants it to be... and as far as I can tell from my International Bonsai Police Manual, I see nothing in rules, to the contrary. Just because you think we should all go skipping through the forest holding hands, does not mean we all actually have to...

Oh... and there was nothing really hard about bringing the concept I did... time consuming perhaps? Wasn't to much of a stretch for me... the tree looked like a soldier, so I ran with it. Easy peasy...

 

[fourteener]

Because there is no such thing as American bonsai.
It's all just bonsai.
I don't go out into my yard thinking I'm growing American bonsai.
I'm only growing plain old bonsai.
In America.

A few times when this issues comes up for me is at a show or workshop. Super refined dense pads are the Japanese order of the day. In my opinion sometimes those images seem to manufactured. So I have a dream of keeping the wild look of a great piece of yamadori. Often it seems like a master or judge wants the tame version of over manufactured.

I don't want this to be about a lazy American not doing it right by Japanese standards. I want my tree to look like it just came down off a mountain. This is part of an American aesthetic.

The displays that sawgrass has shown here actually represent an aspect of American culture. To be honest, I'm not a fan. Simplicity is replaced with busyness. It's all good stuff visually, but it lacks the simplicity that I personally love. I'm apt to have two well-placed works of art in my living room. Simple, plain, profound. It's my personal style that goes into my trees. Some of an American style is the allowance for variety. It's generally not allowed... Too bad.

 

[Vance Wood]

In the course of things searching for the illusive and yet ubiquitous American Bonsai, the quest is could ultimately culminate in something that is so far away from Japanese sensibilities of Bonsai that it probably will not be understood as bonsai at all, but some totally different art form. Personally I believe, for the most part, you are going to see American bonsai with Japanese Cliches presented in American ways with American themes, characters, and methods of displays. I believe these presentations could be looked upon as parodies, not imitations.

I believe also that these displays, and trees, will of necessity have the grace and beauty that their influences have or had. I remember in the old days where people thought they could poop a tree in a bucket of pee and claim it legitimate as an American bonsai. It was a kind of the gender preference theorem being played out in bonsai. Just because you produce a garbage display or a garbage bonsai please do us all a favor; don't try to legitimize it an American bonsai.

This is not saying that Sawgrass' displays fall into the poop and pee catagory, they most certainly do not, but any innovation or deviation from the norm is going to be pilloried at first.

 

[A Random User]

In the course of things searching for the illusive and yet ubiquitous American Bonsai, the quest is could ultimately culminate in something that is so far away from Japanese sensibilities of Bonsai that it probably will not be understood as bonsai at all, but some totally different art form. Personally I believe, for the most part, you are going to see American bonsai with Japanese Cliches presented in American ways with American themes, characters, and methods of displays. I believe these presentations could be looked upon as parodies, not imitations.

A few times when this issues comes up for me is at a show or workshop. Super refined dense pads are the Japanese order of the day. In my opinion sometimes those images seem to manufactured. So I have a dream of keeping the wild look of a great piece of yamadori. Often it seems like a master or judge wants the tame version of over manufactured.

I don't want this to be about a lazy American not doing it right by Japanese standards. I want my tree to look like it just came down off a mountain. This is part of an American aesthetic.

The displays that sawgrass has shown here actually represent an aspect of American culture. To be honest, I'm not a fan. Simplicity is replaced with busyness. It's all good stuff visually, but it lacks the simplicity that I personally love. I'm apt to have two well-placed works of art in my living room. Simple, plain, profound. It's my personal style that goes into my trees. Some of an American style is the allowance for variety. It's generally not allowed... Too bad.

Sorry for lumping both of your replies together, I just think they both hit some if the same tones...

In my own personal view, I see nothing wrong with a display being very simple, often I think that yes, less is more... so, I am in no way shape or form against simplicity. The displays I did for these two trees is not necessarily a vision of what is to come from here on out with my work. I just did what I thought made the best design. Does it mean that I have to display every tree I display in such a way, of course not... as an Artist, I would like to think I am not a one trick pony, and in fact I strive not to be... I will always be searching for something new and different that I have not done before, so I can grow... but, if I do create another piece that resmbles these than in my opinion, that should not be a problem.

What I really liked about these, which as I have said before I didn't set out to do, but clearly they do... is they ask the question of what is possible, as well as show perhaps where bonsai can go. Does this mean they are for everone... or that everyone has to design a display in such a way? Of course not... Everyone should be entitled to do what they think is best and right, as well as what they like... I hold no objections to someone doing this, and frankly find it odd that others do? This is why time after time when someone says you can't do something, or that something can only be a certain way, I will always hold objection to this kind of view, because it is in my opinion, rubbish. Do what you want to do...

Now, with that said. .. want to touch basis on the view of American trees being less refined, and how we should all hold our standards to that of the Japanese, when judging our work...

I was going to start a different thread about this, because I really think it is worth examining...

I have heard time after time, how work that is not Japanese, is not good... how so? I would have to totally disagree with this notion... Why? Because I don't think that one can compare the two... they are just different, and if one looks you can often see that the Artist who create the work seek perfection in different ways.

Will give an example... Chinese Penjing is looked down upon often because many feel that it lacks the discipline that Japanese work does... to put it blunt, the lack of refinement. However, if one examines work done by the Chinese, there is discipline in areas the Japanese lack, due to what each culture holds dear about the Art.

To the Chinese, the art is all about the storytelling, and funny enough about simplicity in their trees . ... go figure, right? This is what is important to them, so it is not uncommon to see their trees with very little ramification, in fact most is actually removed. Like I did with my Fuikien Tea. .. I have gone through and actually removed half if not more of the branching due to the notion, that what was important, was showing a sense of the tree feeling Airy, as well as the notion that often with very old trees you will find they have very little branching and are just hanging on, which is what old trees in nature actually do. They started the art, with the sole purpose of trying to depict what it was they were seeing happen in nature in their neck of the woods. Now obviously, there has been some embellishments along the way, as they sought to try and also stir a sense of mysticism into the work, for in their culture ancient trees held great power and we're often thought to be either blessed or cursed individuals, or even gods, who had returned to earth to now live out their lives in such a way.

Then the Japanese borrowed the Art, changed the name, and added their touches and their trees became reflective of what was important to them... So, the importance of the story of the tree, was lost somewhat in favor of just the perfection of the tree and the Art. You will also note, that the trees actually became less about being subtle, which here again is funny, due to the fact that most associate Japanese culture with being subtle... and in fact did the complete opposite. .. they became quite complex, and to be totally honest, they really inserted their ego within their work to show their craftsmanship of what they could do over nature, rather than what actually nature is... I know... bizarre isn't it... who would of thought that the Japanese could be so egotistical? They added tons of branching and ramification to show the Artist's "skill", in their quest for perfection. But, as we all know nature is not perfect... it just is. And now in places like Tiawan, they have even upted the scale and taken this vision even further.

Both, in my opinion are great, yet at the same time are totally different... Not, quite sure how someone could even begin to try and compare the two as far as which are better? Seeing that they both hold totally different values as to what is important, and what it is that the Artist seeks to accomplish, but hey... that is just me...

My view of perhaps where in the end the American Bonsai Scene might fall is perhaps somewhere in the middle of the two? You have folks who strive to be more natural, and suprisingly enough a lot like the Chinese, who sought to try and replicate what it is that they see in nature... and folks who like all the ramification, due to the notion that this is what has somehow now comes to define what a good tree must be. To me this is fine...

How's that for someone who claims to not actually know these cultures...

 

[rockm]

QUOTE="mcpesq817, post: 361799, member: 850"]I'm also curious as to why you are trying really hard to bring in war images to an art form that is mostly about nature and peaceful tranquility.

Because I can.
See what, you have missed with your previous rant, and negative comments regarding my work, is that it is not up to you to decide what is and what is not Bonsai. Not up to anyone... Bonsai does not have to be peaceful and tranquil, it can be what ever the Artist wants it to be... and as far as I can tell from my International Bonsai Police Manual, I see nothing in rules, to the contrary. Just because you think we should all go skipping through the forest holding hands, does not mean we all actually have to...

Oh... and there was nothing really hard about bringing the concept I did... time consuming perhaps? Wasn't to much of a stretch for me... the tree looked like a soldier, so I ran with it. Easy peasy...[/QUOTE]


Wow. Such an aggressive, condescending reaction...

It's a simple differing point of view and personal taste.

An artist with thin skin has a fatal flaw.

No problem!
I am questioning the whole concept of what is American Bonsai...
For some, it quite literally has to be native material, in a American theme, I am asking why?
And if this then is to be the case what constitutes a American theme?

For me, American Bonsai it is all about the Scene... what people are doing in America... thus American Bonsai.
I have argued the point throughout this thread, that no matter how one tries to reproduce a piece of art
in the likeness of another culture, it will never be that culture. Because the Artist will always have ties to
their own culture and it will thus be reflected in their work... So, even though someone's trees in America might look to be Japanese
or Chinese, they will never actually be this, and will always have noticeable difference...

I have a different take on this. I don't think the Japanese are producing scenes with their displays, as much as they are trying to evoke a specific emotion in the viewer. That approach is at the heart of most art across the globe, including the U.S. Bonsai display, in Japan or America not about a physical "scene" someone sees, as much as it is about feelings the objects in the display evoke.

I think that approach is more human than it is cultural. While the Japanese may see good luck in a rat, and summer in a firefly, Americans can see wilderness embodied in a bronze buffalo sculpture, the south or west when they see a drawing of a rattlesnake, or the Rockies with a dish of Columbines. All of those things are uniquely North American. Using something subtle that references things that Americans know, like tree species at certain times of the year, pictures of skies with big summer thunderheads, or sprawling prairie, etc. can be just as effective for American and Western displays, as samurai armor is for the Japanese.

I don't think American bonsai has to scream "LOOK AT ME. I'M SO DIFFERENT AND REBELIOUS" or anything like that. Plain bonsai display, just like bonsai, is bonsai display--follow me? To be effective here, it has to use elements westerners are familiar with. The same use of subtle, quiet rugged and refined elements don't have to be sacrificed. Western artists are quite capable of making those kinds of things. I'm talking about a shift in reference point.