Newbie stubborness

[rockm]

If I build a house poorly for many years and continue doing so until I get old.......
Does it make me a professional builder?
If I build a house poorly and write a book advocating my techniques does it make me a professional builder?

My house has really become my own judge.

FWIW, the guy's name is Peter ChAn...He's been around quite a while.

Peter Chan - Bonsai Empire

Peter Chan Peter Chan is a self-taught Bonsai artist. Peter is of Chinese ethnicity, born in India. He moved to the UK in 1963 and started experimenting with Bo...

www.bonsaiempire.com

 

[Carol 83]

I will take you to China and show you real penjing

Probably just "lookalike" penjing

 

[BunjaeKorea]

FWIW, the guy's name is Peter ChAn...He's been around quite a while.

Peter Chan - Bonsai Empire

Peter Chan Peter Chan is a self-taught Bonsai artist. Peter is of Chinese ethnicity, born in India. He moved to the UK in 1963 and started experimenting with Bo...

www.bonsaiempire.com

I know...
And.....
Show me a good tree of his .......

 

[leatherback]

Probably just "lookalike" penjing

I think in china they do the real thing!

 

[Sansui]

Yeah I thought you were setting up a hackling for me.
Because of the rock throwers.

What sucks most is the people with good teachers are the ones who cause so much shit because "only they are right".

There is more gold from the self taught.

I just hate contradictory information, and it is everywhere.

You can't hold such a strong stance on some things, when it is not the ONLY way to success.

You're right.

Gleam the gold for your own garden!

Sorce

No man is a perfect man; no gold is sufficiently bare.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

No man is a perfect man; no gold is sufficiently bare.

No turtle is indestructible, no tiger has all its teeth

 

[0soyoung]

I know...
And.....
Show me a good tree of his .......

... what is that addage?

Can't judge a book by its cover?
Pretty trees = horticulture expert?
Ugly trees = unqualified/know-nothing?
Time in position = knowledge/ability?

Something like that.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Hmmmm.
They grow like that here anyway...... next.


I have seen his trees. Not amazed by anything.
Don't like his techniques.


But all.things said. I am glad he helped to popularize the hobby. In that sense he's a business master.

 

[Sansui]

No turtle is indestructible, no tiger has all its teeth

Although thousands of miles and decades apart from each other, we share the same understanding. Radical, isn't it?

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Although thousands of miles and decades apart from each other, we share the same understanding. Radical, isn't it?

Exactly!

 

[Adair M]

No.

Sorce

Well, your post says otherwise.

I’m not against experimentation. After you have some fundamentals under your belt. But trying to do bonsai, on your own, with no guidance is a recipe for disaster.

First, learn the fundamentals. Keep your trees alive. Learn basic techniques. Learn how to create the basic styles.

Then, develop your own style. Go your own way. Kimura was once an apprentice learned how to style exactly as his master wanted him to do. Once he was on his own, THEN he was free to take bonsai in a new path. Without the fundamental training, however, he would never have succeeded.

 

[rockm]

I know...
And.....
Show me a good tree of his .......

Ahem, let me step up onto the soapbox here. Take this rant FWIW and what you paid for it ;-)

Well, "good" is relative. He is self taught and began in the 1970's. Using your current scale of "good" is kind of unfair. Things have progressed tremendously since then. Dismissing his work--and some of it was pretty impactful at the time--I finally "got" trunk chops from one of his books--PRE-INTERNET. Its easy to look down at such things now with the resources available to you at the simple press of a button, but back in the 60's,- 70's, 80's and early 90's all of this stuff was NOT easy to find, much less find in a published book with photos.

Off my soapbox...His trees aren't really all that now when compared to the growing ranks of Japan-educated westerners moving into the general ranks. But it's best not to throw too many stones at the old guys...And FWIW, I've seen it becoming a bit fashionable to trash John Naka too...just sayin....

 

[Adair M]

Ahem, let me step up onto the soapbox here. Take this rant FWIW and what you paid for it ;-)

Well, "good" is relative. He is self taught and began in the 1970's. Using your current scale of "good" is kind of unfair. Things have progressed tremendously since then. Dismissing his work--and some of it was pretty impactful at the time--I finally "got" trunk chops from one of his books--PRE-INTERNET. Its easy to look down at such things now with the resources available to you at the simple press of a button, but back in the 60's,- 70's, 80's and early 90's all of this stuff was NOT easy to find, much less find in a published book with photos.

Off my soapbox...His trees aren't really all that now when compared to the growing ranks of Japan-educated westerners moving into the general ranks. But it's best not to throw too many stones at the old guys...And FWIW, I've seen it becoming a bit fashionable to trash John Naka too...just sayin....

Except... he, like the rest of us, now have access to the Internet where the latest and greatest techniques are shown. I studied under Naka. I, too, once thought that Bonsai Techniques I and II, were the Bibles of bonsai. But, I’ve continued to learn and grow. New methods have displaced the old. A true Master never stops learning. As an example, Naka taught to remove old wire by cutting it off. I don’t do that anymore. I now “unspin” it. It’s better.

Are there “self taught Masters”? Sure, but they’re rare as hen’s teeth. Mr. Ebihara is one. Now his methods have become part of the meta of the new bonsai artists. Follow Juan Andrade’s work to see how the younger generation is applying some of the advanced techniques Mr. Ebihara invented.

 

[rockm]

Except... he, like the rest of us, now have access to the Internet where the latest and greatest techniques are shown. I studied under Naka. I, too, once thought that Bonsai Techniques I and II, were the Bibles of bonsai. But, I’ve continued to learn and grow. New methods have displaced the old. A true Master never stops learning. As an example, Naka taught to remove old wire by cutting it off. I don’t do that anymore. I now “unspin” it. It’s better.

Are there “self taught Masters”? Sure, but they’re rare as hen’s teeth. Mr. Ebihara is one. Now his methods have become part of the meta of the new bonsai artists. Follow Juan Andrade’s work to see how the younger generation is applying some of the advanced techniques Mr. Ebihara invented.

That may be, but some remain cemented to the past or are afraid of the Internet (which is not uncommon among folks Chan's age). Doesn't really negate what they did there. Saying so, skates past their worth. They are what they are in many cases. I know I forever in debt to Chan for a single page from his books--It had a photo of a hornbeam--chopped and being dug up by a backhoe. I know those kinds of collection photos are all over the net, but back in 1993, that photo was groundbreaking for me.

He is stuck in his ways, but he did publish that photo...I'll cut him some slack -- and look elsewhere for current techniques.

 

[AlainK]

Didn't read the ten pages, only the messgage I was mentioned and didn't understand why, but :

I am content to know that you are all probably wrong

 

[AlainK]

No turtle is indestructible

To me, the Turtles will live forever.

In '68, I was 13, and there was this girl, and, er...

What was the question again ?

 

[leatherback]

What was the question again ?

Where did all the pros go

 

[Cajunrider]

Where did all the pros go

Some have moved on but we got new pros like you still here. I am thankful for all.

 

[Gabler]

It's easy to overestimate your skill level as a bonsai hobbyist. Bonsai is an unusual discipline on account of the time scale involved. In most creative endeavors, after four years of dedicated practice, you can call yourself competent. In bonsai, that's just one or two repotting cycles, depending on the species and age of the material. For very old conifers, perhaps less than one repotting cycle. Results are so far removed in time from the procedures we perform that it takes a very long time for hobbyists to accumulate first-hand knowledge. In the meantime, we read countless books and progression threads, watch tutorials on YouTube, and occasionally experiment on our own trees. That fosters an illusion of extensive knowledge and experience, but it is mostly second-hand information. It is therefore very easy for relative newcomers to exhibit unfounded confidence. I know that when I first joined, I thought I knew a lot more than I actually did.

It has been my impression in the short time I've used this forum that many truly experienced bonsai growers have left due to frustration with overconfident newbies contradicting their advice without posting pictures of trees to back up their credentials. On top of that, there seem to have been disputes between the experts themselves, which drove some of them away. Reading old threads reveals some apparently bitter rivalries.

 

[Grunge_Bonsai]

I’m a new annoying person. My philosophy is to learn from the masters, show humility and respect, and grow my trees (22 of them).

But my philosophy is also to Question Authority. Keeps everybody sharp. I make no apologies on that!

I am certainly no expert, but I do believe in productive debate. And I will readily admit wrong when presented with contradicting info.

I am a “why” guy, in my artwork, in my daily work, and in bonsai. IMO this is the fastest way to grow.