Nursery Stock to Bonsai, Order of Steps

[River's Edge]

I don't disagree.

But I think there is way more to it than that.

Some crossover of a newb thinking work must be done at all times perhaps.

Poor ideas and worse application.

Poor scheduling, vision.

A fear of summer repotting.

A fear of "doing work out of season" in general.

..
I can see a collection of 50 spruce that are just about finished requiring a lot of work, wiring etc....

But once one understands the difference between a tree that can be left to its own devices and one that can not.....

When one realizes every bit of work doesn't have to take place in one season...

When one has the right mix of trees in grow out, training, refinement....

It's actually quite easy to properly maintain a decent collection.

Oh when you stop spraying for insects, wasting time on fertilizer cakes recipes and teabagging...stop sticking your fingers in every tree to gauge watering.....

Lotta seriously dumb shit we waste time on too.

Remember....

We can't speed this up,
So we must remove everything that makes it take longer.
This produces the fastest results.

Sorce

I love it how one says they don't disagree and then goes on to disagree!
Incorrect inference re beginners, i have seen it more often in grey beards!
Skipping the bait!
Saving time for serious matters like proper soil components, only working healthy trees, watering properly, excellent organic fertilizer.
Saves time so i can enjoy the journey and also the results.

 

[sorce]

I love it how one says they don't disagree and then goes on to disagree

Well this is a true statement.

The second observation is too often the Bonsai enthusiast has more trees than they could possibly maintain at a high level.

But alone, it implies the cause of this situation is too many trees.

That is not true. The cause is the other things.

Incorrect inference re beginners, i have seen it more often in grey beards!

This is simply a case of that grey beard being one who does Bonsai the same wrong way for 40 years, not an incorrect reference.
Just a "perhaps", or "what if", merely one of hundreds of possible scenarios.

I don't know what...

Skipping the bait!

Means.


Or.

Saving time for serious matters like proper soil components,

Sorce

 

[JefeW]

Yes,
It depends. As you correctly surmised.

Seriously, each individual plant needs its own plan.

Generally, for vigorous deciduous trees, like elm, maple, hornbeam, willow, bald cypress, metasequoia, ginkgo, service berry, apples (all malus) and many more. If the tree in front of you is healthy and in good condition. AND if the time of year is favorable for that species (early spring, when buds are just starting to move, or after the summer solstice, but before growth for the season has slowed to a stop - at least 4 weeks before the autumnal equinox in my area. (Note in areas with extremely hot summers this period may not be an option). Generally for vigorous deciduous trees everything, major root work, major pruning (major chopping) it is all done on the same day. If you wire that day you too the order is Prune - wire - touch up pruning - your major root work - then repot, or pot up into its new container. I have tried breaking it up, root work first, then following year the pruning, and the reverse, the pruning, then the following year the root work. In general, you will be ahead of the game in development if you do it all at once.

Note: this only applies to healthy trees. Weakened trees you will need to go slower.

Remember, vast majority of fine bonsai pots are 3 inches or less in depth, with 4 inches in depth being the maximum for ''off the shelf'' pots. So when you first work the root system - work it hard enough that it is less than 3 inches if at all possible. This will avoid having to purchase custom pots in the future. Cascade pots are deeper, deeper root systems are okay, but they are best only for cascading trees.

Junipers are their own thing. Generally, work the roots first, while you have maximum foliage. Depending on your climate, if favorable, you can get away with doing just about anything at just about any time - those guys in California are lucky that way. Generally for the rest of us you work the foliage and the roots in different years. Also junipers dislike root work, so never repot them more than necessarily. Once every 5 years to once every 15 years is not an unreasonable schedule. As long as the potting media drains, don't repot unless you have to do so to get it into a display pot. Leave ample time to recover. In my zone 5, I give mine a year, 12 months, with no work after repotting.

Spruces and other elongating species as Ryan Neil calls them. Generally when you have maximum foliage in front of you, you can work the roots first. Allow a year or two for recovery. Then begin the foliage work. Spruces are definitely one of the trees that you can do a lot, then give them time to recover, often more than one season. Then you can hit them hard again. I removed 75% or more of the roots of a root bound Colorado blue spruce, it took 3 years before I saw enough growth. Then I did the first round of pruning, I'm in year 2 of waiting for recovery to be sufficient.

Your individual climate will alter the amount of time needed for recovery. Aftercare and horticultural skill also makes a big difference. Get water, sun, and fertilizer at the point where they are ''just right'' is not easy. Too much or too little of any of the 3 (sun, water, fertilizer) will slow recovery.

Pines - are a whole separate matter. You definitely have to accurately estimate the health of the tree in front of you.
Generally root work and foliage pruning are done during different years, but sometimes you can get away with all at once. It is very individualistic.

White pine group, especially Japanese White Pine - is idiomatic, most of your work will be done in late summer, early autumn. I can not pretend to know much about them, ask Adair.

Single flush pines, - most are 2 needle, but some are 3 needle and 4 needle, or in the case of the Single needle Pinyon Pine, 1 needle. All these pines have a single flush of growth. Most of your work will be done after the summer solstice. Usually repot and foliage work in separate years. Vance is your best source for Mugo information. I would generally do root work first then foliage work, though with mugos in good health you can sometimes get away with everything all the same year. Check in with Vance to get details.

Double flush pines - Japanese Black and Japanese Red pines are their own thing. Adair is our best information source.

Then there are the odd pines, that nobody knows what to do with. Bristlecone pines for example. Your bet is as good as mine. I would do root work and foliage work in different years. I would do root work first, allow recovery, then foliage work.

So that is my 2 cents worth.

Seriously - it is the tree in front of you that writes the script.

@Leo in N E Illinois i would subscribe to Leo Live. There are two people who I understand completely all the time, Leo and Ryan Neil. Wonderful detail, I’m saving this post and printing it.

 

[M. Frary]

teabagging

I hate to disagree but teabagging is never a waste of time.
As long as you are the teabagger.

 

[M. Frary]

Means

Getting that thing way up under a dock or pontoon boat!

 

[River's Edge]

Getting that thing way up under a dock or pontoon boat!

Faster trolling speed, fewer weights, jerking the line!

 

[sorce]

Faster trolling speed,

This is still confusing!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

@River's Edge I love your inform and particip ations.

I have a serious problem, made exceptionally worse by my current life situation, that can not stand when information is misunderstood or undermined.
That's how I feel about that "skipping the bait" comment, which, (wow, is that the actual meaning behind trolling? As In bait?, But wait , under the bridge, troll... WTF?

Anyway, I know some of the things I type, are beyond (or so it seems) the actual subject at hand, therefore it is possible one could feel I am here to argue, or troll..

But the only thing I will ever try to bait anyone into, is a conversation based on observed facts vs. shit that people say.

Unfortunately, what you said about large collections, violated something of what is ACTUAL REAL truth truth.

For instance....
Let's say someone takes that advice and pares down their collection to better maintain it, when what they really needed was an understanding of appropriate timing and aftercare, or Vigor as a truth like @bwaynef recently spoke of, and @Leo in N E Illinois teaches well....

Now a good portion * of prebonsai has gone to the dump, or to another unskilled artist, never to be made good.

And the remaining part of the collection, is still going to suffer because he didn't up his skills, just lessened the numbers.

It's not that I win because this statement is true, it's that bonsai suffers.

That IS why I am here, to promote righteous Bonsai activities.

And Fishing.

Oh I didn't tell y'all about how she was like beach....and I was like....YaK!
Found out my yak is just as comfortable or better without the seat.
4ft swells are my comfort limit.
Lake Michigan is up about 3ft since the last time I was there.
You don't catch anymore fish in a yak than you do from the shore!
But I did see a couple bass, and a lil gang of smallies. All right where you'd expect em.

I need a better deep water rig.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge I love your inform and particip ations.

I have a serious problem, made exceptionally worse by my current life situation, that can not stand when information is misunderstood or undermined.
That's how I feel about that "skipping the bait" comment, which, (wow, is that the actual meaning behind trolling? As In bait?, But wait , under the bridge, troll... WTF?

Anyway, I know some of the things I type, are beyond (or so it seems) the actual subject at hand, therefore it is possible one could feel I am here to argue, or troll..

But the only thing I will ever try to bait anyone into, is a conversation based on observed facts vs. shit that people say.

Unfortunately, what you said about large collections, violated something of what is ACTUAL REAL truth truth.

For instance....
Let's say someone takes that advice and pares down their collection to better maintain it, when what they really needed was an understanding of appropriate timing and aftercare, or Vigor as a truth like @bwaynef recently spoke of, and @Leo in N E Illinois teaches well....

Now a good portion * of prebonsai has gone to the dump, or to another unskilled artist, never to be made good.

And the remaining part of the collection, is still going to suffer because he didn't up his skills, just lessened the numbers.

It's not that I win because this statement is true, it's that bonsai suffers.

That IS why I am here, to promote righteous Bonsai activities.

And Fishing.View attachment 259306View attachment 259307View attachment 259308

Oh I didn't tell y'all about how she was like beach....and I was like....YaK!
Found out my yak is just as comfortable or better without the seat.
4ft swells are my comfort limit.
Lake Michigan is up about 3ft since the last time I was there.
You don't catch anymore fish in a yak than you do from the shore!
But I did see a couple bass, and a lil gang of smallies. All right where you'd expect em.

I need a better deep water rig.

Sorce

Intentions are important, as well as context. Isolation of specific words and phrases can twist any discussion off the rails.
We are both here for the same reason.
Kaizan - continuous improvement dedicated to Bonsai
Many intelligent, professionals use tea bags and organic fertiliser formulae, it is not a scam, your blatant comments simply were out of place if improvement of Bonsai is your goal in my opinion. Every method has its strong points and weak points but there is room for inclusion of many methods.
What if someone simply believed every single word you expressed and did not take the time to learn the context, comprehend the overall subject? Or more importantly adapt the fundamentals to their situation!
One could make a great argument for Vigor being the fundamental foundation for continuous Bonsai improvement! I make that statement very often when teaching and demonstrating.
We also agree on fishing, just my method may seem strange or incorrect to you as i fly fish and troll!

 

[bwaynef]

What do figure out you were doing wrong?

For several trees, I'd never allowed them to regain vigor after doing work. ...

Blah blah blah.

The biggest factor: learn what health/vigor looks like and then wait until the tree shows that before working on it.

I'm also coming to learn (or at least suspect) what effect (high, 7.5-ish) pH water can have on trees.

 

[ceriano]

Yes,
It depends. As you correctly surmised.

Seriously, each individual plant needs its own plan.

Generally, for vigorous deciduous trees, like elm, maple, hornbeam, willow, bald cypress, metasequoia, ginkgo, service berry, apples (all malus) and many more. If the tree in front of you is healthy and in good condition. AND if the time of year is favorable for that species (early spring, when buds are just starting to move, or after the summer solstice, but before growth for the season has slowed to a stop - at least 4 weeks before the autumnal equinox in my area. (Note in areas with extremely hot summers this period may not be an option). Generally for vigorous deciduous trees everything, major root work, major pruning (major chopping) it is all done on the same day. If you wire that day you too the order is Prune - wire - touch up pruning - your major root work - then repot, or pot up into its new container. I have tried breaking it up, root work first, then following year the pruning, and the reverse, the pruning, then the following year the root work. In general, you will be ahead of the game in development if you do it all at once.

Note: this only applies to healthy trees. Weakened trees you will need to go slower.

Remember, vast majority of fine bonsai pots are 3 inches or less in depth, with 4 inches in depth being the maximum for ''off the shelf'' pots. So when you first work the root system - work it hard enough that it is less than 3 inches if at all possible. This will avoid having to purchase custom pots in the future. Cascade pots are deeper, deeper root systems are okay, but they are best only for cascading trees.

Junipers are their own thing. Generally, work the roots first, while you have maximum foliage. Depending on your climate, if favorable, you can get away with doing just about anything at just about any time - those guys in California are lucky that way. Generally for the rest of us you work the foliage and the roots in different years. Also junipers dislike root work, so never repot them more than necessarily. Once every 5 years to once every 15 years is not an unreasonable schedule. As long as the potting media drains, don't repot unless you have to do so to get it into a display pot. Leave ample time to recover. In my zone 5, I give mine a year, 12 months, with no work after repotting.

Spruces and other elongating species as Ryan Neil calls them. Generally when you have maximum foliage in front of you, you can work the roots first. Allow a year or two for recovery. Then begin the foliage work. Spruces are definitely one of the trees that you can do a lot, then give them time to recover, often more than one season. Then you can hit them hard again. I removed 75% or more of the roots of a root bound Colorado blue spruce, it took 3 years before I saw enough growth. Then I did the first round of pruning, I'm in year 2 of waiting for recovery to be sufficient.

Your individual climate will alter the amount of time needed for recovery. Aftercare and horticultural skill also makes a big difference. Get water, sun, and fertilizer at the point where they are ''just right'' is not easy. Too much or too little of any of the 3 (sun, water, fertilizer) will slow recovery.

Pines - are a whole separate matter. You definitely have to accurately estimate the health of the tree in front of you.
Generally root work and foliage pruning are done during different years, but sometimes you can get away with all at once. It is very individualistic.

White pine group, especially Japanese White Pine - is idiomatic, most of your work will be done in late summer, early autumn. I can not pretend to know much about them, ask Adair.

Single flush pines, - most are 2 needle, but some are 3 needle and 4 needle, or in the case of the Single needle Pinyon Pine, 1 needle. All these pines have a single flush of growth. Most of your work will be done after the summer solstice. Usually repot and foliage work in separate years. Vance is your best source for Mugo information. I would generally do root work first then foliage work, though with mugos in good health you can sometimes get away with everything all the same year. Check in with Vance to get details.

Double flush pines - Japanese Black and Japanese Red pines are their own thing. Adair is our best information source.

Then there are the odd pines, that nobody knows what to do with. Bristlecone pines for example. Your bet is as good as mine. I would do root work and foliage work in different years. I would do root work first, allow recovery, then foliage work.

So that is my 2 cents worth.

Seriously - it is the tree in front of you that writes the script.

How much root reduction is safe in the first repotting? Can you go from a 8"-10" deep pre-bonsai to a 3" deep pot?

 

[Adair M]

How much root reduction is safe in the first repotting? Can you go from a 8"-10" deep pre-bonsai to a 3" deep pot?

Maybe. Maybe not. It depends.

 

[bwaynef]

I can't possibly agree with this post any more than I do. I truly believe this is what's held me back for years and I only started realizing this the past few years. It took me too long to fully understand that what I was seeing wasn't the epitome of what "health" SHOULD look like. That's meant that I've been a little more hands off, technique-wise, on my trees last year and this. The difference in vigor and growth is finally coming around and I feel like I'm going to be swimming in trees to work on soon. (Or offloading some.) I'm still learning how to build vigor, but there's definitely more of it in my trees than in years past.

Exposure to other's high quality trees has proven to be eye-opening. Get out there. Look around. Compare the results you're getting to the results others are. Figure out why yours is different.

What do figure out you were doing wrong?

For several trees, I'd never allowed them to regain vigor after doing work. Repotting, trimming, decandling... whatever it was. Sifting my soil seems to have helped a good bit. Figuring out when to be more active in pest control has provided a return in spades. (Spider mites are the devil.) I'm not convinced I get the growth others do with organic fertilizer so I've got to figure out what I'm doing wrong there. I also have to correlate the amount of shade I have with the results I'm seeing ...eliminating other factors as I can. I'm getting there.

The biggest factor: learn what health/vigor looks like and then wait until the tree shows that before working on it.

I'm also coming to learn (or at least suspect) what effect (high, 7.5-ish) pH water can have on trees.

My present thinking is that the bulk of my issues were with the (lack of) amount of light my trees were getting. Having removed 15 mature trees from a PORTION of my half-acre lot, I've created a space that has ample exposure to the sun. Its not full-sun all day, because I live in a forest & my neighbors have trees, but there's lots of it, particularly when its brightest out.

Within 2 weeks, the nature of the growth on every one of my junipers changed. I've now got runners growing on almost every shimpaku. Things are thickening up. Pine needles aren't excessively long.

I basically have had this new amount of sun for 3-4 weeks of the growing season last year ...if that. As things are starting to get going this year, I'm excited to see the vigor in my trees increase ...and hopefully this will have been the last piece of the puzzle. I fully expect its going to bring with it its own challenges, and may need to erect a shade structure of some sort.

(One other benefit to the hands-off approach mentioned above has been the improvement in several rootballs by leaving them to go longer between repots. I'm guilty of repotting too often ...and suspect others are as well. Vigor suffers as a result.)

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

How much root reduction is safe in the first repotting? Can you go from a 8"-10" deep pre-bonsai to a 3" deep pot?

On my first few initial repots I didn't go as far as I needed to go. Now I have a decent amount of nursery soil that I'll need to remove in the next repot. Since then I've taken following approach.

• Remove the top portion until I've found the nebari.
• Identify planting angle and then remove just enough bottom soil to allow the tree to sit at that angle. Start working my way up from the bottom trying to maintain the angle.
• With a deciduous; go up until I hit the base of the tree or until I feel like there aren't many roots. So far it's been more the former than the latter. With a conifer go up until you hit a nice base of fine roots. While going up you'll hit structural roots and fine roots. Cut those off as you go.
• Once I find how far up I can go I start to work the perimeter of the root ball at least until I get it to where it will fit in the pot. If I can go further I will, but only until I feel comfortable. This will vary based on species and abundance of roots of course. With conifers I keep more root ball for all of the known reasons. I don't particularly like to bare root a deciduous either, but I'm willing to go a bit further with soil reduction than a conifer.

This is what I'm comfortable with. I'm sure others will have other opinions. Good luck and have fun!

 

[Forsoothe!]

This is all difficult to state flatly, anything, because we all have to start with the roots as you find them, and you can't always guess before looking at them the volume; mix of anchor roots verses feeder roots; quality/health, et al. People make a mistake when they choose a pot of some given size to reduce the roots to before seeing what's there. And it's been said before: there are people that successfully repot in every season, remove wildly different percentages of roots, before, during and after heavy top work, and do it all happily with great results. There are also lots of times that plants croak just sitting on the bench, treated well and untouched.

 

[Vance Wood]

IT ALL DEPENDS: Depends on time of year, species of tree, health of tree and how the tree historically has proven its ability to withstand this treatment.

 

[ceriano]

IT ALL DEPENDS: Depends on time of year, species of tree, health of tree and how the tree historically has proven its ability to withstand this treatment.

I should get my tree in on Wednesday. It's a willow leaf in a 10" pre-bonsai pot.

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

I should get my tree in on Wednesday. It's a willow leaf in a 10" pre-bonsai pot.

Willow leaf ficus? Wait until the heat is about to get there. They like heat. Mine went from an 8" terracotta pot to a 1" bonsai pot. It didn't skip a beat. Looking at my pics I did it on June 22nd. I'm in zone 8b in humid Charleston, SC. As you can see from my pics the tree was very healthy. By the end of summer I could see new roots all over the place. Beautiful and fun species to work with.

I had my best transition to the indoors this year too. I put it in full shade for a month and it didn't skip a beat coming indoors. I had only meant to put it in full shade for a couple of weeks, but the temps didn't drop as expected. In past years the tree would shed all leaves within a few weeks of being indoors. This year it kept close to 50% and that's likely due to my forgetting to water a couple of times.

 

[ceriano]

Willow leaf ficus? Wait until the heat is about to get there. They like heat. Mine went from an 8" terracotta pot to a 1" bonsai pot. It didn't skip a beat. Looking at my pics I did it on June 22nd. I'm in zone 8b in humid Charleston, SC. As you can see from my pics the tree was very healthy. By the end of summer I could see new roots all over the place. Beautiful and fun species to work with.

I had my best transition to the indoors this year too. I put it in full shade for a month and it didn't skip a beat coming indoors. I had only meant to put it in full shade for a couple of weeks, but the temps didn't drop as expected. In past years the tree would shed all leaves within a few weeks of being indoors. This year it kept close to 50% and that's likely due to my forgetting to water a couple of times.

View attachment 359494

Beautiful tree. I like the pot too. Where can I find something like that? I like shallow pots but I was afraid that may be too much pruning for the first potting.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Oh I didn't tell y'all about how she was like beach....and I was like....YaK!
Found out my yak is just as comfortable or better without the seat.
4ft swells are my comfort limit.
Lake Michigan is up about 3ft since the last time I was there.
You don't catch anymore fish in a yak than you do from the shore!
But I did see a couple bass, and a lil gang of smallies. All right where you'd expect em.

I need a better deep water rig.

Sorce

You are way, WAY up there on the north side. Like almost Evanston

I used to run that lakefront so I know what the skyline looks from multiple angles. I also used to dive Lake Michigan in the early spring right about where you are there. Lot of wrecks... Bet your ass was cold Thing about diving wrecks in Lake Michigan is that you get to collect something that most people don't even think about... huge crayfish! Like 5" crayfish that just sit there while you pluck them off a wreck and fill a basket. Freshwater crayfish with creole seasoning and salty butter! Big enough to eat the claws!