One Infraction Per Season?

[dbonsaiw]

Fairly new to bonsai and, while inquiring about a maple project, there were a number of responses that addressed timing/seasons and how much work can be done on a maple at a time. I have been hearing the adage "only one infraction per season", but this doesn't always seem to be the case and, at least for this newbie, the notion of a season is somewhat confusing. The tasks that generally need to get done are repotting, root pruning, branch/trunk pruning, air layers and maintenance. Maintenance is done on an as-needed basis. Fall seems like a good time to repot, but in my mind that also means root pruning. I can wait till spring to repot and root prune, but can I still prune the branches/trunk chop and/or air layer. Do I need to wait for summer for the chop (I assume that's a different season). I've seen plenty of videos where folks repot, prune the roots and then trunk chop, but that seems like multiple infractions. The idea of repotting/root pruning and then air layering seemed a bit much to handle for the maple to some. I'm in no rush and just don't want to overload the tree.
So how much work is too much work and what jobs simply can never be done in the same season/year?

 

[Wulfskaar]

I've heard "one major insult per year", which is way more restrictive than "per season". It might be "per growing season"?

I've found that it's a very good idea to adhere to the vast experience of our fellow B-Nuts. Seasons matter for certain things and you can really hurt/slow the progress of a tree by doing things out of season.

The more you do to a tree, the more time it needs to recover.

 

[ShadyStump]

First, it depends on the tree, and where you live. Not a helpful answer, but the only one you'll get. The more you get to know different types of trees, the more you'll understand it.

Second, I heard it as one insult per season, but whatever. A season is what a season does, or maybe what you do with it.
Season is a generic term for, "the right time for the right thing," putting that in relation to the physical seasons we learned about in grade school.
A season can be waiting until the same time next year, or it could mean another six months until the best time for the next thing to be done.
I tend to think of bonsai seasons as generally spring to fall, but then some pines are often repotted in winter, so who knows.

 

[AcerAddict]

The idea of repotting/root pruning and then air layering seemed a bit much to handle for the maple to some. I'm in no rush and just don't want to overload the tree.
So how much work is too much work and what jobs simply can never be done in the same season/year?

I feel like this was already covered in your thread about the Shishigashira.

Yes, it's one major traumatic episode to the tree at a time. With most deciduous, you prune roots and repot at the end of winter/early spring right before the buds swell. Major chops to branches can be done later in the year, think fall after all the leaves fall off. Minor pruning to maintain a silhouette can be done after the new spring growth hardens off. A lot of all this depends on the tree.

If you do a big root pruning and repotting early next year, don't do major branch cutting until the roots have had a chance to recover. You'll need the foliage on the tree to produce energy to help grow roots.

 

[dbonsaiw]

It could very well be one per year. The advice from the B-Nuts members has been priceless. The problem of having a little knowledge is that I don't what I don't know and its very easy for a newbie like me to assume I heard one thing when the answer was far more nuanced than I originally thought. The devil is always in the details and this hobby has its fair share of important details. For example, it's really easy to get sound advice about a maple and, unaware of fundamental differences, try to apply that to pines. I know I'm getting good advice here, I just want to make sure I'm actually applying it in the right context.

 

[ShadyStump]

I wonder if we could attach a wiki style glossary to the site.
It would probably blow itself up inside of 48 hours, and take the rest of the internet with it.

 

[Wulfskaar]

It could very well be one per year. The advice from the B-Nuts members has been priceless. The problem of having a little knowledge is that I don't what I don't know and its very easy for a newbie like me to assume I heard one thing when the answer was far more nuanced than I originally thought. The devil is always in the details and this hobby has its fair share of important details. For example, it's really easy to get sound advice about a maple and, unaware of fundamental differences, try to apply that to pines. I know I'm getting good advice here, I just want to make sure I'm actually applying it in the right context.

I am in the same boat. I'm only in my 2nd year and still learning to just keep trees alive. It's a great thing that you came here for advice because there are many experienced people that are happy to share good advice.

 

[AcerAddict]

It could very well be one per year. The advice from the B-Nuts members has been priceless. The problem of having a little knowledge is that I don't what I don't know and its very easy for a newbie like me to assume I heard one thing when the answer was far more nuanced than I originally thought. The devil is always in the details and this hobby has its fair share of important details. For example, it's really easy to get sound advice about a maple and, unaware of fundamental differences, try to apply that to pines. I know I'm getting good advice here, I just want to make sure I'm actually applying it in the right context.

You've listened to the advice and acknowledge that it's helpful, so that's a good thing. If I have to guess, it sounds like you're just antsy and looking for SOMETHING to do to a tree. If that's the case, then I'll just echo what most everyone else here is going to tell you: learn to be patient. I've maintained plants and trees for a long time, but just got into bonsai this time last year. In my opinion, fall is the worst season to start this hobby in earnest. All deciduous trees are starting to change colors and drop their leaves. Tropical plants can't be left outside much anymore because it's too cold. Conifers slow down growth. It's just the way it is.

In the end, they're your trees and you're welcome to do whatever you want to them. Just don't be surprised if you start killing or at least severely crippling trees by doing too much heavy work to them in too short a time period. That big Shishigashira of mine I mentioned in the other thread dropped 30-40% of its leaves for no reason whatsoever the week after I brought it home and slipped it into a bigger pot. I moved it to full shade and kept it moderately watered until I planted it in the ground. After that, the leaf drop ceased and the remaining leaves stayed green. Japanese maples are, as a whole, somewhat finnicky with their care. Certain varieties are hardier than others, but they don't handle major abuse very well.

 

[rockm]

That "one insult per year" stuff is traditionally for pines.

Decidous trees, in general, can be worked much more aggressively than conifers. Drastic top and root reduction can be done at the same time with little problem for most deciduous species.

For instance at repotting every three or four years, I generally saw off two thirds of a maple's root mass (more if its a trident) as well as doing any drastic top reduction at the same time. The timing is generally just before bud break, however, you can repot--including a less-aggressive root prune for maples after their leaves "harden off" or turn leather hard in June-ish...Word of advice on maple root work, doing root reduction at the same time as drastic top reduction reduces or eliminates sap "bleeding" from the top pruning wounds.

Also, I regularly collect native deciduous species "all at once," sawing tree out of the ground and doing an initial trunk chop, then plunking them in bonsai soil and training containers. .I've done that with trees that have eight inch nebari. Most professional collectors do the same.

Fall is not reall a great time to repot--unless you have a frost-free, but cold (under 40 F) place to store your trees. root prune now in New York (and the first frost is pretty close for you at this point) and the tree will sit on cut roots until April or so. Same for hard cut back branches. Those cut ends will sit unhealed for months in freezing weather. That can mean top die back on the branches and death for some of the root mass if they're not stored somewhere adequate.

 

[AcerAddict]

Decidous trees, in general, can be worked much more aggressively than conifers. Drastic top and root reduction can be done at the same time with little problem for most deciduous species.

This contradicts much of what I've read in this forum since joining earlier this year. I don't openly doubt anything anyone says, but cutting roots as well as branches at the same time has been explained as being a "no-no" to me before. Conflicting opinions are always going to exist, but what's the right call? Is a root reduction and branch chopping OK being done together or isn't it?

 

[rockm]

This contradicts much of what I've read in this forum since joining earlier this year. I don't openly doubt anything anyone says, but cutting roots as well as branches at the same time has been explained as being a "no-no" to me before. Conflicting opinions are always going to exist, but what's the right call? Is a root reduction and branch chopping OK being done together or isn't it?

I don't think you've been reading things correctly. There are many posts about doing just what I've said...It's common practice to do both when reducing trunks, collecting trees, etc. It's been done for a very long time.

 

[badatusernames]

That "one insult per year" stuff is traditionally for pines.

Decidous trees, in general, can be worked much more aggressively than conifers. Drastic top and root reduction can be done at the same time with little problem for most deciduous species.

For instance at repotting every three or four years, I generally saw off two thirds of a maple's root mass (more if its a trident) as well as doing any drastic top reduction at the same time. The timing is generally just before bud break, however, you can repot--including a less-aggressive root prune for maples after their leaves "harden off" or turn leather hard in June-ish...Word of advice on maple root work, doing root reduction at the same time as drastic top reduction reduces or eliminates sap "bleeding" from the top pruning wounds.

Also, I regularly collect native deciduous species "all at once," sawing tree out of the ground and doing an initial trunk chop, then plunking them in bonsai soil and training containers. .I've done that with trees that have eight inch nebari. Most professional collectors do the same.

Fall is not reall a great time to repot--unless you have a frost-free, but cold (under 40 F) place to store your trees. root prune now in New York (and the first frost is pretty close for you at this point) and the tree will sit on cut roots until April or so. Same for hard cut back branches. Those cut ends will sit unhealed for months in freezing weather. That can mean top die back on the branches and death for some of the root mass if they're not stored somewhere adequate.

would you see repotting and air layering a maple at the same time an ok idea?

 

[dbonsaiw]

I'll be following the advice received on the Shishigarisha thread. I started this one because there does seem to be somewhat differing opinions on what to do when with just maples or even a specific maple. For example, I heard to never do a major branch pruning in late fall/winter as there is more die back and less healing leaving a bigger scar. Then there are those who regularly do this. Some will only trunk chop in summer. Repotting in winter when dormant vs. early spring right before bud break. I will admit that the advice not to do a heavy root prune and then an air layer kind of threw me for a loop, although I may have misunderstood as I has wanted to ALSO do a major trunk chop after the air layers came off. Slow and steady can't be wrong, but a little more definiteness on what could be done is wanting.

 

[badatusernames]

My understanding is cut and then repot for deciduous, you can do both at the same time but cutting after repotting means more bleeding and possible branch loss so do it first.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Then there's always the bonsai video where the guy whips out a blow torch. I'm gonna pass on whatever the heck that's for now.

 

[ShadyStump]

See, it all depends.

I'm in year 2 myself, and have really just been focusing on the mental glossary and whatever tidbits I can glean about general horticulture. That way, when I and my trees are ready we can just get strutting along.
That mental glossary can be important because it can make a huge difference in how you assimilate and apply the answers you get to your questions. Unfortunately, bonsai is one of those things where most terms are very loosely defined and used. Example, Walter Paul started a thread once with one question at it's heart: what constitutes a literati? It ran for pages and pages over months of discussion and debate and really got you thinking about bonsai aesthetics and styles. The same phenomenon can apply to other terms.

So, a major insult for one species might only be a minor for another. A season for a pine may be a year from now, but for a maple it could include all the year except winter.
Spend your time on these nuanced concepts now, and you'll be able to make more use of advice later.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Home Depot runs a fall sale and their maples are now $15 per. I would hate to mangle a tree, but it appears some experimentation is needed (and it aint gonna be on my shishigashira). I ruined a few arborvitaes in the past few months in my impetuousness to learn to wire and give trees marine-style haircuts.

 

[rockm]

would you see repotting and air layering a maple at the same time an ok idea?

Not really. THis all boils down to what you're asking the tree to do. Air layering depends on the underlying strength of the tree. I'd question why you'd want to air layer and root prune at the same time. Yeah, it could probably be done, but probably not a great thing to do at the same time.

 

[rockm]

My understanding is cut and then repot for deciduous, you can do both at the same time but cutting after repotting means more bleeding and possible branch loss so do it first.

That's horseshit. I was advised (and have done it myself) that root pruning drastically reduces the "bleeding" on hard upper pruning done along with the root prune. BTW, sap is not blood and trees can't "bleed to death."

 

[dbonsaiw]

I don't want to rehash what is discussed on another thread, but I raised the question of root pruning and air layer elsewhere as well. The question came up in the context of a large nursery stock tree that is root bound. I wanted to get the roots cut back from the 12 inch deep pot to begin training it. I also wanted to air layer as much of the existing growth as I could before branch/trunk pruning. As you note here, I was advised air layering in the same "season" as a big root prune is not advisable. I would have pruned roots and branches/trunk at once in the spring, but though I could interrupt this with some air layers. Good I asked. So I thought, I could use some more info on what gets done when.