HallieReusch
Sapling
I think it's good to acknowledge that stereotypes exist and also to acknowledge the implications.
Possible to have a forest where trees are technically the same age? (Trident Maples)
- Thread starter Yamabudoudanshi
- Start date
I think it's good to acknowledge that stereotypes exist and also to acknowledge the implications.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Wasn't talking about you...
PeaceLoveBonsai
Chumono
In an effort to get this post back on track...I have a couple of thoughts.
Besides the conifer, I think the forest has quickly become one of my favorite bonsai subtypes. Living in St Louis, when I get outdoors, I'm often in deciduous forests. I'm finding inspiration everywhere!
Maybe the following is common knowledge, but for me, I've recently began to understand bonsai forests, at least, aesthetically better than before. So, indulge me for a second, then I'll circle back to the OPs original question.
When I first began building forests (from seedlings), I focused primarily on the following shape:
Which, is good. It offers the attempt at a scalene triangle that is important to bonsai design. But, what I missed, is that really good forest bonsai (IMO), offer another scalene triangle...
And that's created with the thickness of trunks. So when, the two come together, it's pleasing to the eye.
So, as I go about improving the forest that I have, I'm looking to introduce more trunk girth.
As I think about the next forest I want to create, I'm steering away from using all the same year seedlings and looking to find trees of varying ages.
The challenge I have for you, @Adair M , is that you often will say something to the effect "I don't have time to develop X, so I'd rather purchase something that is farther along". (Which, btw, I whole heartily agree). But in the case of the forest you show, won't it take years to develop? And doesn't that go against your philosophy in other bonsai sub-types (conifers, for example)
For me, the next forest I build will be using stock from different ages of trees and it won't be using all seedlings. Nothing against the forest you bought, but who has time for those trunks to develop inside the bonsai pot? We buy age all the time, why don't we do the same with forests?
Besides the conifer, I think the forest has quickly become one of my favorite bonsai subtypes. Living in St Louis, when I get outdoors, I'm often in deciduous forests. I'm finding inspiration everywhere!
Maybe the following is common knowledge, but for me, I've recently began to understand bonsai forests, at least, aesthetically better than before. So, indulge me for a second, then I'll circle back to the OPs original question.
When I first began building forests (from seedlings), I focused primarily on the following shape:
Which, is good. It offers the attempt at a scalene triangle that is important to bonsai design. But, what I missed, is that really good forest bonsai (IMO), offer another scalene triangle...
And that's created with the thickness of trunks. So when, the two come together, it's pleasing to the eye.
So, as I go about improving the forest that I have, I'm looking to introduce more trunk girth.
As I think about the next forest I want to create, I'm steering away from using all the same year seedlings and looking to find trees of varying ages.
The challenge I have for you, @Adair M , is that you often will say something to the effect "I don't have time to develop X, so I'd rather purchase something that is farther along". (Which, btw, I whole heartily agree). But in the case of the forest you show, won't it take years to develop? And doesn't that go against your philosophy in other bonsai sub-types (conifers, for example)
For me, the next forest I build will be using stock from different ages of trees and it won't be using all seedlings. Nothing against the forest you bought, but who has time for those trunks to develop inside the bonsai pot? We buy age all the time, why don't we do the same with forests?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
After all the dust settles, the answer to the original question still is: yes, you can start a forest with trees of the same age. For evidence that this works, simply browse through Bill V's book or blog where he shows forest plantings that he started from the same (or within a year or two) age seedlings. Over time one can manage the planting to encourage some trees to grow more and develop larger trunks while holding others back. Is it a quick way to a mature/show level forest? Probably not, but bonsai isn't always about how fast something can be done.
As the forest matures one can add in smaller/younger trees to add depth and variety if needed.
Almost certainly the best/fastest path to a top notch forest/group planting is to use well developed trees of different sizes and ages, that have been developed as, and could stand alone as bonsai. But really, how many of us have access to enough of that kind of material? So using seedlings or cuttings of similar age is a reasonable way for most of us to approach a group planting.
As the forest matures one can add in smaller/younger trees to add depth and variety if needed.
Almost certainly the best/fastest path to a top notch forest/group planting is to use well developed trees of different sizes and ages, that have been developed as, and could stand alone as bonsai. But really, how many of us have access to enough of that kind of material? So using seedlings or cuttings of similar age is a reasonable way for most of us to approach a group planting.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Best bonsai forest book EVER!!!! If you don't have it, GET it. It's a must-read if you want to do multiple tree plantings. You don't have to use Exo spruce ;-)
stonelantern.com
Forest, Rock Planting & Ezo Spruce Bonsai by Saburo Kato
This exceptional classic is a wonderful museum quality bonsai treasure by the true master of forest rock plantings. Previously available only in Japanese, it stands as the definitive bonsai book on the subject and is a noble addition to the collection of top quality bonsai books now available in...
stonelantern.com
Sure you can buy a more mature forest. I rarely see them for sale. I bought the best forest that’s reasonably available. They’re difficult to transport.
Bill V has been making these forests out of seedlings for years. He’s rather famous for it. I like having a couple of forests that are designed by him.
A benefit of using seedlings from one batch of seeds is they are going to have similar genetics. There’s less a chance of an oddball tree having huge leaves or different internodes or different fall (or spring) colors than all the rest. A design philosophy I like in forest is “harmony”. Single species forests have that, and by having the same genetics in all the trees helps create that harmony.
Someone posted above about a forest that was created by taking a batch of seeds, then growing them out separately in varying sized pots for 20 years, then putting the forest together. Is that a better way? Very possibly! If I were to start that process now, I’m 66, I’ll be able to start my forest when I’m 86! And even then, it takes a couple years for the root systems to meld together, branches to get to where they don’t fight... Oh joy!! I’ll have a forest at 90! I hope I live that long!
Seriously, another way is to source material of different sizes. My friend Morgan Alexander spent a full day digging 19 different Stewartia from a field where they had been started 20 years ago. He and Boon, and myself then spent a day arranging them into a pot, and securing them so they would move. (Much!). Is THAT method a better way? Absolutely! How often can you find a situation like that? Rarely.
I have a picture of it somewhere...
Well... actually, no I don’t. Sorry, I thought I did! Anyway, here is a picture of Morgan and Boon, an a few of the bagged trees we used:
Nevertheless... this thread is based upon the concept of “can you develop a forest from a single batch of seedlings?” And I say you can. There’s several ways to create forests, each have their pros and cons. All take dedication and patience, just like any other bonsai.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I would also highly recommend this book, if you can find a copy. It is the only bonsai book I own where I started with the soft cover, and went back and bought a cased hard cover version.
I'll open myself up for criticism in an effort to get this thread back on track,
I did a lot wrong building this, especially the time of year (early December in Ohio!?) I have to believe Norway Spruce are the Elms of conifers. And it was my second (end of the first) overly enthusiastic season.
These are all the same age. I tried to pick the fatter trunks for the center. I have 3-4 more for spares and one collected one with a fatter trunk for future.
The plan is to allow these roots to meld and later separate the two halves and add the larger one in the center at some point on a slab/flagstone. I am going to choose a new leader and cut back all the trees substantially. (I've done this already but not short enough in my mind)
The extras I have individually potted in the containers they came in are to be put in larger containers or the ground this year. They've not grown much and been neglected. The larger collected one I (potted last year) Is short and bushy having been cut back many times in the grow bed needs love to look right in the group but have a trunk twice the size of the rest.
12-6-2016
12-8-2016 dunno how it survived winter...
About 4 years later.
I've enjoyed the process, regardless of the results/quality.
I did a lot wrong building this, especially the time of year (early December in Ohio!?) I have to believe Norway Spruce are the Elms of conifers. And it was my second (end of the first) overly enthusiastic season.
These are all the same age. I tried to pick the fatter trunks for the center. I have 3-4 more for spares and one collected one with a fatter trunk for future.
The plan is to allow these roots to meld and later separate the two halves and add the larger one in the center at some point on a slab/flagstone. I am going to choose a new leader and cut back all the trees substantially. (I've done this already but not short enough in my mind)
The extras I have individually potted in the containers they came in are to be put in larger containers or the ground this year. They've not grown much and been neglected. The larger collected one I (potted last year) Is short and bushy having been cut back many times in the grow bed needs love to look right in the group but have a trunk twice the size of the rest.
12-6-2016
12-8-2016 dunno how it survived winter...
About 4 years later.
I've enjoyed the process, regardless of the results/quality.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
This European beech forest was created in March 2014 using only 2 and 3 year old field grown seedlings. So, they were all within one year old of each other. The complete demonstration can be seen in my blog of March 28, 2014 at:
www.valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2014/03/
Check out this blog, its kind of interesting to see the process of using nearly identical seedlings to create a forest bonsai.
Immediately after creating in March 2014
Autumn 2016
January 2018
www.valavanisbonsaiblog.com/2014/03/
Check out this blog, its kind of interesting to see the process of using nearly identical seedlings to create a forest bonsai.
Immediately after creating in March 2014
Autumn 2016
January 2018
It’s more difficult, in my opinion, to get good spacing using conifers than with deciduous trees. With deciduous trees, you can just bare root them, and get them as close together as you like. Conifers, with rootballs, are more difficult, yet they, too, need to have some planted close to each other to look natural and not like an orchard.
And it would be especially difficult to later add a bigger tree since it would have a larger rootball.
Here is Kimura’s famous hinokii forest:
Notice that while there are some trees definitely larger than others, there’s not one that is hugely larger.
Again, they all harmonize well.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
That Hinoki rock planting forest was created by Kimura and sold for $18,000 in November 2018.
However, that is NOT Kimura's famous Hinoki rock planting forest. His original is in the opposite direction and there are several small trees growing from the bottom of the rock. But, they do look similar. The one shown here was made to be sold.
By the way Kato's book on Ezo Spruce, Forest & Rock Planting Bonsai was compiled and edited by me for the National Bonsai foundation who published the book.
Attached is Mr. Kimura's original as it looked in November when my tour visited his garden.
However, that is NOT Kimura's famous Hinoki rock planting forest. His original is in the opposite direction and there are several small trees growing from the bottom of the rock. But, they do look similar. The one shown here was made to be sold.
By the way Kato's book on Ezo Spruce, Forest & Rock Planting Bonsai was compiled and edited by me for the National Bonsai foundation who published the book.
Attached is Mr. Kimura's original as it looked in November when my tour visited his garden.
I feel a little silly posting my forest among these but...
Old pic from 2016. It's about 2 times the girth now than the pic shows and the current trees in the planting.
I believe it will fit in the dry creek bed area in the center. It's not really that large. I grew it in a cinder block for 3 years to keep the roots compact. It's now in a 6" shallowish pot.
Old pic from 2016. It's about 2 times the girth now than the pic shows and the current trees in the planting.
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
You should show photos of the one you put together in 1993 or thereabouts, what it looked like then and what it looks like today. The one in your Classical Bonsai Art book. Not sure if you still have it? But the pics from around 2012 showed what can be done over time with this approach.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
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Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Mark, thank you for posting your forest. I applaud your effort and courage. This is a pleasant to look at forest. It goes to my point that those of us, including myself, of intermediate and beginner skill levels should try our hands at forests. A forest can look pleasant, even though many of the trees have minor flaws. Or the trees are immature. You can get away with less than perfect material in a forest. And yet as the group matured, the quality of the group vastly improved. Still a ways to go, but definitely a nice, pleasant, good looking forest. I'd be happy with it on my bench. National show level, I'm sure Mark would agree, not ready yet. And his later post shows plans for tree additions and other improvements. But even in the first set of photos, it is a nice forest, that many of us would enjoy having on our own benches.
You can even see this in the first photo from Bill Valavanis, of his beech forest. Not all of those beech seedlings were "perfect". They were pretty raw stock, with a fair number of flaws. But because of Mr Valavanis's skill, by the next photo, it is difficult to find any flaws. And certainly the last photos show a forest in which I can see zero flaws, if they are there, they are minor.
So my point is, that creating forests does not require an exponentially higher level of attention to detail that training that number of individual trees would require. The aggregate group is trained as a single unit. The more trees you have, the less perfect each individual tree needs to be.
So please, if you are relatively new to bonsai, don't be intimidated by forest plantings. They are not that difficult to get a pleasant to look at, enjoyable planting. While perfection is the eventual goal, the forest planting allows a fair amount of leeway, and many imperfections go unnoticed.
So try a forest planting. You won't regret it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Here's one I started from same age seedlings a while back (maybe 2013 or 2014). The photos are from 2016, I'll have to look to see if I have anything more recent (trees are currently in winter storage of course). These are Korean hornbeams (from Matt Ouwinga). I neglected them for a year or two and the leftmost tree grew much faster than the others, so I've been working on getting the front/middle trees to bulk up while holding that left one back. First photo is the actual group as it appeared, second pic is a virt where I've suggested what a final canopy might look like.
I have a bunch more of korean hornbeam seedlings of similar age that I've been growing in individual pots. They may be used to make another group, or some may be added to this one. Right now there are 7 trees so I don't know if it would be better to call a forest or a group. I also have another similar planting made with seedlings from @William N. Valavanis but not sure if I have a photo of that group. Fun to work with regardless.
I have a bunch more of korean hornbeam seedlings of similar age that I've been growing in individual pots. They may be used to make another group, or some may be added to this one. Right now there are 7 trees so I don't know if it would be better to call a forest or a group. I also have another similar planting made with seedlings from @William N. Valavanis but not sure if I have a photo of that group. Fun to work with regardless.
I agree! In fact, if you buy a bunch of seedlings, pick out the really good ones to use for individual bonsai. The others use for forests.
William N. Valavanis
Chumono
That’s what I do......
Maloghurst
Chumono
Forest like this and Kimura’s look like a snapshot of huge forest that continues on beyond the pot or slab. Where ones like this almost feel like a caricature of an entire forest in one compact image. Both are successful representations of a forest. Just different styles. I like both of these. I don’t know if adding a bigger tree will add anything to your forest @Underdog but I look forward to seeing the result. I think it looks very natural as is. Young but very natural.
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