Progressing American Bonsai

[Smoke]

Seems such a waste that Bonsai has come to the point that working with a master teacher is everything and doin it your self is well...doin it your self.

Shame all the best teachers seem to come from Japan.... some might call that irony.

Too bad they spent all that time and money, they could have went to Saw's house and learned it the American way.....

 

[A Random User]

Yes, the thread I posted a while back was in regards to how it seems that much of the material being worked on today by master artists are all beautful yamadori with amazing potential. Nothing wrong with that and that is great and expected. I was just recalling how about 10 plus years ago, it seemed that lesser quality stock was used more often. It was not a positive or negative issue or anything that required an opinion. It was just something I seemed to notice.

I can only explain it by 10 plus years ago, I would estimate that maybe 60% was top notch material and the rest of the work was on young or sub par material. Today, I would say that it is about 90 top notch material and barely 10 percent stock that is considered long term or very problematic.

Rob

I would agree...
For me, there is so much better material available now then when
I first started... The nursuries that I have gone to for years, themselves
have grown, and are so much better than when I first went to them...

Now side note... One of the things I was trying to get at with my initial
thread post, was that some of our styling techniques have changed as well.
For me... this top notch material would still be really sub-par, if I was
styling how I used to style when padding everything up.

This is not to say that I am not still doing losse pads here and there, but
my approach now is more in the designing of the "Silhouette" of the tree.
Bringing bended and twisting branches from one side of the
tree to another... a feat which makes some of the "Old-Timers" cringe,
I know... But these are what "actual" real trees do...

so I think when one talks about sub-par material... years ago when one
didn't have a branch where one needs it, they would just try and grow one...
Now we just bend over one from some where else...

 

[A Random User]

Seems such a waste that Bonsai has come to the point that working with a master teacher is everything and doin it your self is well...doin it your self.

Shame all the best teachers seem to come from Japan.... some might call that irony.

Too bad they spent all that time and money, they could have went to Saw's house and learned it the American way.....

Thanks for your post.

 

[Smoke]

Your welcome.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

These cantankerous rants of late have done nothing to improve my American bonsai...sounds like a lot of cabin fever around here. When my kids are plugged in too long, they get crabby and we send them outside to play. Last weekend I went outside to play and actually did some bonsai work. Not so crabby anymore.

Repotted a few trees...



Worked on a ROR trident:


Even collected an azalea with some potential to be a decent bonsai some day...


To those crabby-pattys out there...What are you doing to progress your American bonsai?

 

[Vance Wood]

These cantankerous rants of late have done nothing to improve my American bonsai...sounds like a lot of cabin fever around here. When my kids are plugged in too long, they get crabby and we send them outside to play. Last weekend I went outside to play and actually did some bonsai work. Not so crabby anymore.

Repotted a few trees...

View attachment 31651View attachment 31652View attachment 31653

Worked on a ROR trident:
View attachment 31654

Even collected an azalea with some potential to be a decent bonsai some day...
View attachment 31655

To those crabby-pattys out there...What are you doing to progress your American bonsai?

That's a really good point. I don't know how many times the subject of American bonsai has come up over the last ten years or so but it has been a lot. From those who wish to define a style that is uniquely American------that isn't crap which is what most efforts in this direction have yelled. To---like this thread, analyzing the condition of American Bonsai (I think that's what this thread is about), and here I am not sure we have come up with anything. How the world views bonsai in America, whether you like it or not, is not good at all, but sadly it is accurate.

 

[DaveV]

I wonder if there's a way to get my Ph.D degree in a week. Better yet... I want to be a professional musician. Does someone here know how I can become a rock star real quick??? I'd just like to give it a try.

We American's have had to good for too long. We have grown used to getting anything we want. Moreover, now we feel entitled to what we want.

The bigger picture is this.... Who cares if our bonsia are subpar to the Japanese or Europeans. Who cares!!!!!! If you do, then spend a lot of your money and devote most of your time to growing trees in a pot. If you feel thats the best thing for you and your family, then go for it!

Ryan N. felt this was a good decision for him, and look what he has to show for it (Great Trees) More power to him! Would I like to have trees like his - You Bet!

Do I want to put in the time, money, my life, to have trees like this?????? NO. Therefore, my trees will not look like his. Do I have a problem with that???? NO.

Do I live in a Socialists country where I do not have to work so that I can spend a lot of my time growing trees in a pot??? NO.

Do I live in a country where I can dream about improving my life and surroundings, bettering myself financially and trying to imporve my kids's future??? Yes

Therefore, Do I have trees that look like some of our European friends?? NO Do I have time to make my trees to look like their's.. NO. Do I enjoy the art of bonsai and have some nice trees?? YES. Does the hobby make me feel good and improves my person??? YES. Do I care if someone has better looking trees than me???? NO.

LEARN TO BE CONTENT WHITH WHAT YOU HAVE. IF YOU HAVE THE TIME AND MONEY TO MAKE YOUR TREES LOOK WORLD CLASS, GO FOR IT.

 

[KennedyMarx]

How many people posting in this thread have been to actual bonsai exhibitions and shows? Particularly ones in Japan? It seems like some are judging skill level by two dimensional pictures and regurgitating second/third hand opinions on the differences between the different countries.

The Japanese have been practicing bonsai for hundreds of years so of course they have a tradition of bonsai and more resources for artists to work with, but it seems a bit stereotypical to think that just because a bonsai artist is Japanese that he possesses some innate skill that Americans or Europeans lack. Is every Japanese bonsai artist auomatically up to the level of Kimura or whoever your favorite Japanese bonsai artist is? By that same train of thought not every American bonsai artist is a hack.

 

[catfish chapstick]

prove it

Rarely are trees in the wild found in ceramic pots either. And actually, many old, mature deciduous trees do develop incredible density. I would suggest, rather than chopping up a show ready bonsai, to drive around and closely examining the shrubs around your home and in the neighborhood and see if you can tell a difference between those shrubs and the two trees pictured in this thread. You may start to discern a few differences, such as with the pomegranate, there's taper not only in the trunk but all the branches as well, no crossing branches, incredible vigorous and balanced interior growth, movement, and consistent feeling of movement from branch to branch.

Kind regards,
Darth

yes, i have examined old trees and shrubs alike. show me a photo of an old mature deciduous tree with "incredible density" resembling that of the two bonsai examples shown. A mature ficus will do it but that's not deciduous. If this can happen in nature then you will have no problem showing me an example. otherwise i stand by my original statement. real trees open up quite a bit.

I think a lot of people doing bonsai get caught up in bonsai and forget about nature.

 

[William N. Valavanis]

Bonsai is a horticultural art form which is interpreted by the artist. There are many types of bonsai.

Classical bonsai, which is the form of the Twisted trunk pomegranate you originally showed, is a classic Japanese bonsai, in fact this bonsai received the coveted Kokufu Prize a few years ago at the show, and I was there to see it.

Classical bonsai does NOT always depict exact tree forms growing in nature. The form of a Japanese classical bonsai are usually "IDEALIZED," and the shapes are usually determined by the artist and the public. All the Japanese bonsai are produced for sale and the public has different tastes.

The current taste for many Japanese bonsai customers is to have twiggy growth. This indicates that the artist who produced the tree understands how the tree grows and the excellent care which went into producing the tree. Fine delicate twigs are coveted in Japan with most deciduous species, depending on their natural growth characteristics. A Zelkova would not have the same ramification as a sumac.

So, it does not make sense to equate trees growing in nature with a fine classic Japanese bonsai that you showed. Perhaps another form or style of bonsai will show what you are trying to show.

 

[Vance Wood]

Bonsai is a horticultural art form which is interpreted by the artist. There are many types of bonsai.

Classical bonsai, which is the form of the Twisted trunk pomegranate you originally showed, is a classic Japanese bonsai, in fact this bonsai received the coveted Kokufu Prize a few years ago at the show, and I was there to see it.

Classical bonsai does NOT always depict exact tree forms growing in nature. The form of a Japanese classical bonsai are usually "IDEALIZED," and the shapes are usually determined by the artist and the public. All the Japanese bonsai are produced for sale and the public has different tastes.

The current taste for many Japanese bonsai customers is to have twiggy growth. This indicates that the artist who produced the tree understands how the tree grows and the excellent care which went into producing the tree. Fine delicate twigs are coveted in Japan with most deciduous species, depending on their natural growth characteristics. A Zelkova would not have the same ramification as a sumac.

So, it does not make sense to equate trees growing in nature with a fine classic Japanese bonsai that you showed. Perhaps another form or style of bonsai will show what you are trying to show.

This makes a lot of sense. It is my understanding that bonsai is not supposed to be an exact representation of a full grown ancient tree, mostly because that goal is not possible, but more of a surrealistic representation of an ancient tree. We are I believe, dealing with the difference between realism and surrealism.

 

[Zach Smith]

This makes a lot of sense. It is my understanding that bonsai is not supposed to be an exact representation of a full grown ancient tree, mostly because that goal is not possible, but more of a surrealistic representation of an ancient tree. We are I believe, dealing with the difference between realism and surrealism.

How about in some cases surrealism, in other cases idealism or romanticism?

Zach

 

[Vance Wood]

How about in some cases surrealism, in other cases idealism or romanticism?

Zach

I suppose that's possible but I don't know enough about all the schools of artistic concepts to be able to relate how idealism (maybe) if my understanding of the word is indicative of the discipline relates to the execution of bonsai. As to romanticism???? How that relates to bonsai may be a stretch. Then we have cubism and every other ism all the way to orgasm that you can think of.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I guess it all depends on taste and what you believe is ideal. Im surprised that that is the trend in Japan. Does classical mean old-fashioned in this case? For me, an ideal bonsai will depict an honest and believable expression of nature. I came to bonsai through a love of nature, not Japan. In my opinion, something too idealized or romanticized looks contrived. We all have different personal taste in art. For me a good design/bonsai needs to have a sensitivity to space, not just impressive taper, movement, fine ramification, and all the correct ratios. If you study trees by trying to draw or paint them you quickly learn that it's not very easy to make a natural looking image by idealizing the form. My two cents.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I'm only talking about the two examples given. Maybe they are not photographed we'll to show how good they really are (?)

I think this quince looks natural and shows just the right amount of branch density, with sensitivity to negative space. For me, this is ideal.

http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/13/68/54/85/kokuf_10.jpg

 

[rockm]

"For me, an ideal bonsai will depict an honest and believable expression of nature."

That is your strict interpretation. Bonsai is not really about "honest" or "believable." It is about human expression using living plants. It is open to as many interpretations as there are people practicing it.

It is no more about trying to exactly mimic nature than a sculpture made of stone. Both are used to express HUMAN feelings, not nature's.

 

[catfish chapstick]

"For me, an ideal bonsai will depict an honest and believable expression of nature."

That is your strict interpretation. Bonsai is not really about "honest" or "believable." It is about human expression using living plants. It is open to as many interpretations as there are people practicing it.

It is no more about trying to exactly mimic nature than a sculpture made of stone. Both are used to express HUMAN feelings, not nature's.

So this expression doesn't work better when its believable to nature? different interpretations I guess.

pic related

 

[rockm]

"So this expression doesn't work better when its believable to nature? different interpretations I guess."

I don't understand, but the two interpretations are not mutually exclusive. The surreal can bleed into the "real" and vice versa. There is no singular way for expression in an artform.

 

[Vance Wood]

I guess it all depends on taste and what you believe is ideal. Im surprised that that is the trend in Japan. Does classical mean old-fashioned in this case? For me, an ideal bonsai will depict an honest and believable expression of nature. I came to bonsai through a love of nature, not Japan. In my opinion, something too idealized or romanticized looks contrived. We all have different personal taste in art. For me a good design/bonsai needs to have a sensitivity to space, not just impressive taper, movement, fine ramification, and all the correct ratios. If you study trees by trying to draw or paint them you quickly learn that it's not very easy to make a natural looking image by idealizing the form. My two cents.

In short the bonsai has to ring your bells from what ever point of view you are coming from. Nothing wrong with that, that in essence is exactly the way I feel. If I look at a bonsai that rings my bells I really don't make a fecal donation if it follows all the accepted classical rules or breaks them all. On the other hand if I see a bonsai that doesn't "move me" it can follow all of the rules etc. and still not be a great bonsai in my eyes.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I don't understand, but the two interpretations are not mutually exclusive. The surreal can bleed into the "real" and vice versa. There is no singular way for expression in an artform.

I totally agree. I don't mistake my opinion for fact.

I hate olives. I'll eat them anyway but I still hate them. If I am making a pizza I will leave them off. It's not for me. My friend Deanna loves olives. She prefers extra olives.

Why don't we all just have the same brain? That would get old fast I think.

I only state my opinion. I like the variety of opinions on here. I don't exactly feel defensive if someone disagrees but I like to explain myself as I like when others explain their perspectives so I gain some perspective on perspectives. It helps me grow as a viewer of bonsai and as a grower (hopefully).