Talent = Vision?

Mr. Andy,

First and foremost, I want to express my appreciation to you for placing this question here for open discussion...I doubt any one person has a definitive answer to this...I know I certainly do not, but I have enjoyed the discussion to this point, and do look forward to reading the thoughts of others...I have no doubt we can all learn much from this...Ok, enough 'atta-boys' on to the question and my thoughts...

I believe Mr. Tom has hit on a couple good points here...Those being “ practice, practice, practice”, and “the willingness to learn at every opportunity”, which includes, “Exposing yourself, in person, to high quality trees from artists that you would like to emulate or respect”...I would add to this the careful study and examination of trees in nature, and include the study of photos, both of trees in nature, and of bonsai...The more exposure to these things one has, and the more analysis one is able to acquire, the more 'ideas' you will have at your disposal to achieve a design plan for ANY particular tree you are working with...You can be governed by the so-called 'rules', and choose to only work with the perfect piece of material, and you will likely achieve a respectable bonsai...However, if your desire is to create a more outstanding 'work of art', the best means, in my opinion, is to create something unique and memorable...This can best be achieved through the study of nature and the work of other artists, after one masters technique and understands the 'artistic principals' involved in creating a pleasing work...

Having much more time involved in the study, teaching, and performance of music, I would like to use this art form as an analogy to illustrate the things mentioned...When I first began to learn to play the trumpet I studied the fingerings required and the embrochure [lip pressure and position] needed to play each note of the scale, one note at a time...I would practice each day until I finally reached a point where I no longer needed to think about what valves needed to be depressed to play an F#...It just came naturally...At this point in my life I could be a part of most organized groups making music by reading a pre-determined score...I could be in a band or orchestra and be comfortable, but I was involved in the craft of bringing to life the art of the composer...I was not creating art...With several years of additional daily practice I reached a point where it was no longer necessary to even see the notes written on the page...If I heard it, or created it in my own mind, it would come out automatically in the fingerings and embrochure...I no longer had to think about the mechanics of playing the instrument but could concentrate on the details of making it my own...I had accomplished the basics of playing the trumpet...At this stage I believe I was on the threshold of creating art...I knew the 'rules', I had developed a certain amount of technique, and was comfortable with my horn...It was only when I began to truly study and analyze other artist that I started forming a group of studied techniques, 'bag of tricks', or as many Jazz musicians call it “chops”, which would make my playing unique and memorable...I studied carefully the works of my favorite trumpet man Mr. Louis Armstrong...I discovered one of the things which made his music different was his manner of attacking the notes, being just ahead of the beat on faster pieces, yet just behind the beat on more mellow works...The ability to make some notes somewhat 'garbled' rather than all notes having the smooth texture normally associated with orchestra playing, and his use of vibrato on the higher register notes...From listening to the recordings of Mr. Al Hirt I learned how to start the final note of a passage with a smooth tone, then gradually evolve into a vibrato as the tone faded...I carefully listened to and analyzed horn players such as Harry James, Dizzy Gillispie, Miles Davis, and others, and I learned a few different techniques from each...I did not limit my study to only Jazz, nor to trumpet only, but tried to learn as many different 'riffs' from as many different sources as possible...All of these things became a part of my personal “chops” or 'bag of tricks', and their use allowed me to create my own unique 'style' of trumpet playing...I did not try to copy the work of any particular artist but instead 'borrowed' from each, those things which appealed to my sensitivity...One should also not overlook sources which you do not find to your own taste, for example, I did not like the later works of Mr. Charlie Parker due to the lack of a defined melody, [sometimes referred to as a “cutter”] but by analyzing his later works, I discovered a 'trick' that has been useful to me on numerous occasions...That being, music follows a chord progression moving from one chord to another with the melody using notes from the scale of the chord in progress, however if one only uses the notes of the 'pentatonic' [first five notes of the scale] scale of that chord there are no wrong notes...This discovery was phenomenal for me, and I learned it by listening to music I did not really like...One should also look to sources which are not among the 'well known'...For example, Country Music artist Mr. Willie Nelson uses and is well recognized for his ability to start a 'phrase' several beats behind the rest of the band, yet he will 'rush' his timing so that by the end of the phrase he is in 'sink' with the other musicians...He uses this in both his vocals and his guitar work...Many years ago at an “after the bars close” party in Nashville, I had the opportunity to discuss this with him, and learned he acquired the technique from a lesser known [he didn't even remember the man's name] saxophonist in a 'Blues bar' in Memphis...Mr. Willie related to me the hours he devoted to practicing this technique until it became 'natural' for him, and indeed has become his 'trademark'...Once I attained enough 'chops' in my 'bag of tricks', most of which were borrowed or stolen from others, I became able to play a reasonable 'break', even on songs which I had never before heard...Songs which did not even follow patterns I had learned, I now had the ability to 'own' them, or make them my own by using a variety of different 'chops'...

Now I shall attempt to relate all this 'gibberish' to bonsai, and the question posed...When we first become interested and decide to 'give it a go' we must of necessity begin with the basics...Regardless of the amount of “talent” or “inherent characteristic” we have, we can not create a good bonsai until we learn the means to do so, nor can we keep it alive...The basics would include the horticultural aspects, but would also involve the 'artistic' principals which are often referred to as 'rules or guidelines'...For some this process will require much more time than it does for others...That time depends much on dedication and practice...It should become a 'natural' occurrence, almost happening without serious thought...It is only after these are learned are we able to build our 'bag of tricks'...Your 'bag of tricks' or 'chops' will contain techniques such as branch bending and pruning, pot selection, trunk and branch chops for taper, creating deadwood, wiring for movement or placement, etc. to achieve your desired goal...It should also contain 'design elements' which you have gained by the analysis of works by other artist and trees from nature...As we have discussed previously, I believe this time came for both of us after we discovered bonsai on the internet and forums...Although we both had a few 'chops' to our credit the internet began adding exponentially to our experiences...Just the fact of increased exposure to photos, and explanations of various techniques we are exposed to through the internet, adds greatly to our 'chops'...We can increase this quickly by carefully analyzing those characteristics of a tree or of bonsai which we find draws our attention...We need to develop the ability to not only see the whole tree, but to also find small details or characteristics of that tree which make it work...Things such as a dead branch, a hollow trunk or the manner in which the deadwood partially covers the hollow of a trunk or branch, the grain configuration of deadwood, the curvature of a branch or trunk, a really ugly knot or protrusion which indicates age, the shape of a canopy, the inclination of a particular tree, all contribute to our ability in the future to adapt these 'chops' to a particular situation...Careful study of trees by your favorite artist is a great place to begin, but also study other works...Even if you don't find the work as a whole appealing, there will be one or two things in that tree which you can use on a tree in the future...As you and many others are aware I am not particularly fond of most of the “over-worked/green helmet” [my opinion] bonsai of the Japanese culture, however I have been able to add to my 'chops' many 'detail items' which I find useful from these same trees...One should study and analyze trees from all cultures and disciplines in order to have a wider availability of choices in your 'bag of tricks' for working on your own trees...I am of the opinion that most of the truly outstanding bonsai are not those which follow the generally accepted styling practices, but those which are perceptibly unique...For example, in viewing photos from the collection of Mr. Walter Pall, he has some trees which are certainly 'good' trees and follow traditional forms...However the most outstanding and memorable trees for me are those which if one were choosing material according to the 'guidelines' would probably be passed up...With his vast 'bag of tricks' he has been able to make these trees into a true work of art, not necessarily conforming to the 'standards', but certainly using 'artistic principals' and a 'good eye' for trees in nature...I am thankful that when he travels he takes photos and shares them with the internet community...Have you noticed he posts not only bonsai he has the opportunity to view, but also the trees in nature?...I believe both are equally important to creating works of art...

When we view our own trees with styling in mind, it is extremely important to have as many ideas and details as possible to choose from...It is also just as important to have the techniques needed to achieve the design we have in mind...

Yes I do believe “talent” is an inherent characteristic, but it is a characteristic we must develop by dedication and practice...I also believe “vision” is a necessity for creating outstanding bonsai, but this too must be developed by expanding our 'bag of tricks' to have a wider number of choices for the given material, regardless of whether it is ideal material, or something others have discarded because it does not conform to their experience and knowledge...

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 
Holy Moly Behr, thats got to be the longest one page reply I've seen yet, so I will reply from the previuos posts, with a promise to come back to yours.

"Just sitting and pondering upon whether we have talent or not, takes us nowhere. The question is: how do I use my current level of talent to make the pursuit of bonsai a satisfying and truly rewarding experience?

It is a practical question (not a philosophical one), that requires a practical answer, that hopefully helps creating better bonsai."
Atilla, I think you hit the nail on the head.
 
Behr, that was heavy.....
..but I managed to finish the whole post, and I have to say that it was a pleasure.

Bill, thanks. Since I like hockey, I have a little story to tell here, regarding talent. The Vancouver Canucks hockey team has a pair of identical twins, Henrik and Daniel Sedin. They are forwards, so their job is to score goals. They have identical DNA, so they were born with the exact same amount of talent. And, by the way, they look identical, so hardly anybody can tell them apart, not even after working with them for years. They grew up in the family, went to the same school, played with the same team, had the same coaches all their life. Now they play on the same line for the Canucks. And yet, Daniel is a natural goal scorer, while Henrik is not. Daniel has a talent to score goals consistently. He clearly outscores Henrik 2:1, sometimes 3:1 year after year after year. Although they both need to score goals, there are not even close. Remember, same teacher, same school, same team.
On the other hand, Henrik is a great playmaker. Much better than Daniel. He sets up the plays, and has more assists than anyone else. He recognizes the opportunities better than his brother.

So, you see, what matters is how we use whatever God has given us.
 
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Thanks Attila, the next time I'm in one of those heated discussions with the bad karma, I'm just going to blame it on my no talent evil twin.:D
 
[QUOTE=Attila Soos;15193]I believe that the secret to achieve your artistic vision is a strictly practical approach: let your hand do the job and then your eye will tell you whether or not you did a good job.

There is a difference between looking and seeing. Looking is always self-centered: what is there for me?, what is it that pleases my ego? will others like what I did?
Seeing, on the other hand, means losing myself in the present, suspending judgment and becoming one with the subject (or the tree, in our case). Seeing is totally honest, not tainted by any selfish act, such as desire for fame and recognition.
I suppose, that's what the great teachers meant, when they said "listen to the tree". You can never certainly say that you "see" something, until you actually use your hands to create your impression of it. Only then, looking at the end result, you can tell whether you were right or wrong.

So, all the above has to do with our devotion to practice and being totally honest to ourselves.

The other part of the equation is study: studying (and enjoying) as many great bonsai as we can. Both printed galleries, as well as real bonsai (more of the latter). Down to the last little detail.

I believe that doing both, will inevitably take you to your artistic vision, whether you want it or not.
Complacency and being dishonest to yourself are the greatest enemies toward this goal. Being dishonest, in this case, means that you care about your own image, and "how the end result will look", more than you care about your tree. Posing would be another word for it.

Edit: Reflecting on my own post made me realize that in fact re-descovering the world around you by using your hands, is the approach that many of our accomplished bonsai artists talk about about (Boon, Kathy, Mario, Peter, etc), when recalling memories of their apprenticeship in Japan. Very little explanation was given, they learned by "letting their hands do the thinking" (-I hope you don't take this literally) and personally experiencing great bonsai.[/
QUOTE]




Attila, thank you for writing down so nicely, something I believe in so strongly my self! Especially this part of your post I think is of great importance in styling your tree in your own personal way:


I suppose, that's what the great teachers meant, when they said "listen to the tree". You can never certainly say that you "see" something, until you actually use your hands to create your impression of it. Only then, looking at the end result, you can tell whether you were right or wrong.


This is so true! You will never really know for certain if your initial styling idea for your tree will be successful or beautiful, until you are at least a few years on the way, styling the tree. You often don't see the result of your actions immediately in bonsai and trough my teaching I found out that this "future vision" is hard to grasp for many, and gooses hesitation and doubt for a lot of bonsai enthusiast! Because you are actually creating "in to the future" and that is confusing and often frightening.
That is because (as Attila said so beautifully) of the different between looking at your tree or seeing your tree.
When, after sufficient studying (seeing) your material, you have created your mental image of your design for this future bonsai, than that image is what you should see from now on when you look at and work on your bonsai. To reach that envisioned goal, you just have to preform all the proper techniques at the right time and give this future bonsai everything to keep it thriving over a good deal of years, until you reached it and than you can take it to the next level and refine it!
If you get to grip with "seeing" your future bonsai in a piece of raw material and learn how to hold one to that mental picture, you can work freely and instinctively, almost zone like ! And when there needs to be some adjusting to your idea along the way, no problem, that is normal. Although we have to learn to accept the fact that we mostly see in and work for the future, we are not psychics, we will come across some unforeseen problems along the way, that's normal and we can adjust our mental image in a sec. But we never loos side of that tree we saw in the material when we started. Unless of course, we see a better one in their along the way! LOL.
When I look at a piece of material to study it and than discover and see the future tree in it, I will almost every time make a drawing of my vision of the future bonsai. My hand gives shape and existence to what I see in the material. Now I don't have to wait all those years to see how my idea might look!

This is what I wrote about this same subject in my profile on AoB.

After the tree is safely in my garden I often make a quick drawing of these original ideas of the future bonsai, to capture those early thoughts like some sort of blue print for my mind, to save those important intuitive thoughts, before common sense and reason take over. I might not even look at these sketches for years, but drawing my ideas will embed them deeply into my brain, like a mental picture. When I come across these drawings later on in the life of my bonsai, they almost always end up looking like those first ideas I had when I saw the tree for the first time.

Drawing your idea on to paper is not only helpful in designing your bonsai, it is also a very good way to make a mental image of your tree!

I think that, beside learning the proper techniques, learning to really see your material is the most important lessen to be thought or to train your self. Analise everything you see about bonsai, see what makes it work or better yet, don't work! Think bonsai! But when it comes to finally styling your tree, don't think to much, follow your idea, your vision in your head. Just do it! Seriously, just try to see and discover a tree in your material and than style it!
I hope this all makes a bit seance, it is so hard to poet my feeling into the right words.
Regards,
Hans.
 
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Good discussion!!!

There are so many good answers posted here that I will just describe my experience's..... I have been doing bonsai for less than 5 yrs now and like almost everyone else I started with 1 gallon crap.... then I got access to the internet, yeah late bloomer I know!, and the exposure to more trees online, good trees made me see things in a new way. Although it was in pictures it really does help to develop ones eye or vision.

Then came the time when I met the owner of Oregon Bonsai. I was able to partner up with him on some ideas which through my activity on forums and such started to bring in bonsai masters to see the trees we offer. With every "Master" that came through we always asked "What would you do with this tree", but we asked about that on 100+ worldclass trees.... Bieng around those trees all the time you think you "see" tree but then a master comes in and opens the possiblities up to things you never thought possible. Well, 3 years of all these masters coming through really helps to develop ones eye.... Now, with new material I would say 50% of the time I am on the same page as them. Why is this? I think this answers the question....... because inorder to develop vision you have to be around awesome trees and have your hands on them as much as humanly possible. That is the only way. Sure, drawing or writing articles on forums can help but for the most part only very little. In order to draw your future bonsai you must first have the eye of vision....
You must get your hands dirty, work on the trees and expose yourself to as many of the best bonsai people and trees that you can. This will develop vision, ability, know how and talent faster than any other means of learning. Maybe an apprenticship with Mr. Kimura would be faster :)

So now, 3+ years of exposure to some of the best that America and Europe have to offer in artist's and potential bonsai trees, my abilities have sky rockted, my collection has improved more than one can imagine and more importantly I have developed some great friendships.

I think hard work, dedication, getting my hands on the best possible trees available and rubbing elbows with the bigger names in bonsai is what helped me the most.

Bonsai has been very good to me and I am very excited about my future within the bonsai world.... it will be an exciting few years to come.

Jason
 
When I look at a piece of material to study it and than discover and see the future tree in it, I will almost every time make a drawing of my vision of the future bonsai. My hand gives shape and existence to what I see in the material. Now I don't have to wait all those years to see how my idea might look!

Thanks Hans for bringing up the importance of drawing a quick sketch of the future vision. I wish people would realize how important that is. I know that a lot of people say that this is bonsai and not drawing, and so they are reluctant to draw anything. But once you put your vision on paper, it becomes a very powerful tool. It helps you see what works and what not. It gives you new ideas, and helps to keep your focus.
 
Drawing your vision is also a powerful tool in teaching and demonstrating. As a bonsai teacher you cant expect from all your student that they understand what you are telling them about your vision of a piece of material. Not everybody is able to see into the future yet, so drawing your future vision for them is like opening a window into the future for them. Now they understand what you are seeing and saying and are able to focus better on your explanation how you are planning to do this and what techniques to use. Instead of still trying to digest what you just told them about your future plans. You can say thinks like: Look at the material: This branch! This branch has to go, because ,as you can see in my drawing, in the future the back branch will have grown enough to fill that space nicely, giving the tree more dept and blablabla.
To see a image along with the explanation, will help to remembering it emensly!
It will also stimulate the students own future vision and that will help them in their surge for the tree in the material.
 
Hans after reading your reasoning for drawing I will be doing sketches, I can see that will only help me. Thanks

Behr, I read it great anology, I can put the two into perspective. A good read Thanks to you as well.
 
Yes....thanks to everyone.Many good thoughts and suggestions.

andy
 
Let us not forget that virts on the computer can be as valuable as sketches, and for many, more practical.



Will
 
I am fairly new at this art form but I believe we all have different ideas of what makes a great bonsai.
I see that each master has his/her own style and even with my limited experience I can pick out
certain artist.Just like famous musicians, painters ect,the great ones have their own style and can be distiquished from others. My goal is to make every tree I shape my own. I want everyone to look different but, still have my signature quality and hopefully someday my trees will be recognizeable.
Good luck and stay creative!
Bonsaibill
 
I am fairly new at this art form, but I believe every great artist has his/her own style. Practice
along with passion, creative vision and the courage to be different will separate you from others. Every famous artist, musician ect has some personal touch to their work that makes them different.
This is also my goal to be recognizable. When someone looks at my trees I want them to be able to say I know that artist!
Good luck
Bonsaibill
 
Interesting concept.
Interesting concept.

Personal recognition rather than creating great Bonsai.
Personal recognition rather than creating great Bonsai.

I can not think of any way you could make that happen, can you?
I can not think of any way you could make that happen, can you?

Everyone has their own idea of success.
Everyone has their own idea of success.

Please keep us posted on results.
Please keep us posted on results.

Good lucK!
Good luck!

Mark
Mark

PS. I would be concerned about the future of Bonsai if not for young Taylor Brown. It seems that a true love of Bonsai drives her. Unless she is distracted by concepts which do not relate to creating great Bonsai, no doubt she will create wonderful Bonsai.
 
Here is a man that can teach us a great deal about creativity and talent. Edward de Bono is the leading authority on this topic.

http://painting.about.com/gi/dynami...ddebono.com/PassageDetail.php?passage_id=1237

His research shows that the idea "Creativity is a natural talent and cannot be taught" is a misconception. He says that there is obviously the genius who is above the crowd, but most of us fall in the "middle category" (not a genius, but not a complete dud either), where learning creative thinking can lead to astonishing results.

This must be good news, for those of us who do not fall in the "genius" category.:cool:

Here is Henri Matisse, who confirms de Bono's idea: “Creation is the artist's true function. But it would be a mistake to ascribe creative power to an inborn talent. Creation begins with vision.

And finally, here is Jason Pollock, who admittedly has no talent. I have to agree with him, if just looking at his work, versus other modern greats. But for a talentless individual, he has done pretty good though. Here is his confession:
“I am doubtful of any talent, so whatever I choose to be, will be accomplished only by long study and work” – Jackson Pollock, Abstract Expressionist

There you have it folks, for Thursday afternoon musings..
 
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Here is a man that can teach us a great deal about creativity and talent. Edward de Bono is the leading authority on this topic.

http://painting.about.com/gi/dynami...ddebono.com/PassageDetail.php?passage_id=1237

His research shows that the idea "Creativity is a natural talent and cannot be taught" is a misconception. He says that there is obviously the genius who is above the crowd, but most of us fall in the "middle category" (not a genius, but not a complete dud either), where learning creative thinking can lead to astonishing results.

This must be good news, for those of us who do not fall in the "genius" category.:cool:

Here is Henri Matisse, who confirms de Bono's idea: “Creation is the artist's true function. But it would be a mistake to ascribe creative power to an inborn talent. Creation begins with vision.

And finally, here is Jason Pollock, who admittedly has no talent. I have to agree with him, if just looking at his work, versus other modern greats. But for a talentless individual, he has done pretty good though. Here is his confession:
“I am doubtful of any talent, so whatever I choose to be, will be accomplished only by long study and work” – Jackson Pollock, Abstract Expressionist

There you have it folks, for Thursday afternoon musings..

This is an encouraging point of view. It affirms what I have suspected for years; though there are those who have a gift, the gift can flounder for the same reason those who do not have the gift never achieve a cherished goal, the fear of, or the reluctance to apply, good old fashioned hard work.
 
Here is a man that can teach us a great deal about creativity and talent. Edward de Bono is the leading authority on this topic.

http://painting.about.com/gi/dynami...ddebono.com/PassageDetail.php?passage_id=1237

His research shows that the idea "Creativity is a natural talent and cannot be taught" is a misconception. He says that there is obviously the genius who is above the crowd, but most of us fall in the "middle category" (not a genius, but not a complete dud either), where learning creative thinking can lead to astonishing results.

This must be good news, for those of us who do not fall in the "genius" category.:cool:

Here is Henri Matisse, who confirms de Bono's idea: “Creation is the artist's true function. But it would be a mistake to ascribe creative power to an inborn talent. Creation begins with vision.

And finally, here is Jason Pollock, who admittedly has no talent. I have to agree with him, if just looking at his work, versus other modern greats. But for a talentless individual, he has done pretty good though. Here is his confession:
“I am doubtful of any talent, so whatever I choose to be, will be accomplished only by long study and work” – Jackson Pollock, Abstract Expressionist

There you have it folks, for Thursday afternoon musings..

Attila,
Thank you for a reasoned, common-sense approach to the idea, as opposed to a pop-culture worship of some numenous "talent" forgiving all sins. This kind of hero worship has been encouraged by professional sports and popular entertainment in the world, especially the U.S., where anything can be ignored or forgiven because of the "talent" of the individual in question.
 
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