Too much light?

[Kevster]

Is it even possible to have too much artificial light for sun loving trees?

 

[Brian Underwood]

Probably not, unless they get burned by too much heat. You should have it on a night/day cycle though, but I'm sure you do already.

 

[Poink88]

I have several sun loving trees and the normal summer sun proves to be too intense for them also. So just matching the sun's intensity here on earth will be (technically) too much.

Based on this, you can have more than the sun light easily so yes.

Disclaimer, I did not verify the calculations but these folks are "nerdy" when it comes to light.
http://www.3reef.com/forums/reef-li...light-output-compared-sun-sealevel-58274.html

 

[Kevster]

Dario something else to consider is location. Here in Delaware most of my semi shade plants do well in full sun and my sun loving can't get enough of it.

But that link is pretty cool.

 

[davetree]

You can have too much light if your plants aren't used to it. Seedlings placed under strong light, for instance, even at cool temps, can react badly, causing the leaves to yellow.

 

[rockm]

The short answer the question is "maybe." Depends on many things, like soil, pot depth average humidity, species, etc. "Sun loving" in a temperate zone is vastly different than "sun loving" in a tropical zone.

For instance, I have trees collected in Texas that I leave out in full sun all summer here in Virginia. They don't miss a beat and have never had leaf burn or any other issues. I also have Zelkova which are also sun loving species, but aren't from the sun-blasted regions of east Texas. They can get a bit of leaf burn in hot windy conditions in full sun.

Tropical species of any sort have no issues at all with full sun throughout the summer here and require it for the most part.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Probably not, unless they get burned by too much heat. You should have it on a night/day cycle though, but I'm sure you do already.

Hey Brian, can you elaborate on why a night cycle is necessary? I've had my ficus and a Brazilian rain tree under a nice T5 HO fixture 24/7 for almost two months now and have had awesome growth on all of the trees.

If it has to do with the calvin cycle, that takes place outside the chloroplasts and the presence/absence of light is insignificant.

Sup wit dat?

 

[rockm]

Da/night circadian rythms

http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/circadianrhythm.html

 

[Kevster]

Brian you are correct. My lights are set on a timer to come on 16 hours off for 8.

Rockm very good point. I should have been more specific with my question. The trees or I should say the cuttings I will be using will be ficus B and willow leaf ficus.

I have always had my tropicals under fluorescent lighting of some sort and I am trying to gather information so I can order the different components to build a different light source and conduct some tests. Tests will be on growth only.

I will use the link Dario gave to help determin how much light will be needed as these lights are extremely bright and can/will damage eyes.

Did anyone look at the link poink88 left? If so what do you think about the equation?

I can't wait to start this build and see the outcome despite all the negative feedback on LED lighting and how it's not ready. I wish instead of being negative and everyone saying give it a few more years everyone would be supportive. I do agree that the commercial lighting sold is not ready. It is seriously underpowered and are set up to try and cover the whole light specrum plants need to grow, bud, and flower. Hell halides can't do this either without changing their bulbs. But to design the light source you want with the color needed only for green growth, I don't see why people wouldn't be more interested and supportive.

I will be doing an LED light build. When? As soon as I figure out exactly what I need to order and the proper spectrum/brightness needed. Then I will perform a comparison between growth of cuttings. Hopefully this will all start in a month or two.

 

[rockm]

"Did anyone look at the link poink88 left? If so what do you think about the equation?"

I think using an equation developed for aquariums and reef tanks needs to be carefully considered when transferring it to trees...

"I wish instead of being negative and everyone saying give it a few more years everyone would be supportive."

I think you're being a bit sensitive. One person's "negativity" can be another person's experience or applied common sense. Having only positive reinforcement and complete agreement on stuff that is far from ideal (outdoor conditions will ALWAYS be better than indoor for plants--unless you have a greenhouse).

Those of us who have grown "indoor" bonsai for years have found it is not easy and will never be as easy as "outdoor" bonsai--unless a greenhouse is involved.

IMO, "indoor" bonsai is vastly more hassle than it's worth and the trees that can be grown in such conditions just can't be developed into the kinds of trees I like. That's just my opinion, obtained after trying indoor stuff for over ten years. Others reach vastly different conclusions.

"Outdoor" bonsai is not only more rewarding (IMO), but also vastly easier on the trees and for the grower... Again, this is all my opinion. Many people (and many of them have salt water aquarium backgrounds, probably not coincidentallly) just love tropicals. I don't. They just don't have as much meaning for me since I don't live in the tropics.

BTW, I had reef tanks for years. Gave them up after my fifth expensive light set-up almost electrocuted me (long story, it was the 80's). Just too expensive and too much hassle for me.

 

[davetree]

Good luck to you on your LED project. I prefer to follow the trailing edge of technology, not the leading. That's just me though. If you like to build lights and things go for it, let us know how it works.

You might want to check out the medical marihuana growers forums. There are quite a few people trying to grow with LED lighting. Many of them have documented growth rates and yield between the different types of lighting. You may get some good ideas.

 

[Kevster]

Rockm I remember my dad using those sketchy light setups on his saltwater tank. Hell one of them is still in his basement. It really is amazing how far technology has come! Not just lighting but more impressively the filtration we use now.
You might be right about me being too sensitive. I will take this into consideration.
I agree with you about growing outdoors as most of what I have is outside but I do love my tropicals. I bring them indoors for the winter. I don't have a greenhouse but I do have a large enclosure which produces better growth in the winter months then I get outside all spring and into the fall as I keep the conditions ideal for tropic plants. Very well lit, humid, and a temperature between 75-88 degrees.

Davetree thank very much for the input and when I start the experiment I will post everything. I have done some research into the pot farms. From what I've seen and read they all seem to go the route of buying commercially built light fixtures designed for growth and budding that use lots of 3-5watt bulbs. I'll be using 50-100 watt chips with bulbs only focused on white and blue color to push green growth. Lol I'm not growing marigolds so there is no need for the reds.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Da/night circadian rythms

http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/circadianrhythm.html

Older thread...sorry about that. Was trying to see what ones said on how many hours a grow light needed on. And yeah, though this article was interesting. My mind isn't grasping a number of hours I'm needing.

As of now...plans are my light cart will go in my sunroom. So it has many windows already, just noticed longer internodes come winter on my bougainvillea. So thought to just baby them slightly by offering them a bit more. (Past two years when brought in they tend to get longer internodes. Just want to keep them looking as they do when outdoors if possible. If at some point I decide next year to change out the bulbs,if I'm not satisfied...that will come at a later date. For the time being it will these bulbs I'll be running.

• Includes 4 F20T12 Gro-Lux Wide Spectrum lamps 20-watt 24-inch

So...bougainvillea bonsai...how many hours of a grow light do they need while indoors?

 

[GrimLore]

So...bougainvillea bonsai...how many hours of a grow light do they need while indoors?

Tough call honest. I will explain what we do with Tropicals and Sub Tropical plants and why but as yet not with Bougainvillea. They all get 16 hours a day of similar light to what you will be providing. They will however have different placement. Our tropicals nestle in as close to the lights as they can without burning them. The Sub Tropical plants get the same hours for ease of application, all being on 1 - 2 timers. They are however kept further away from the lights, most being 2 - 4 feet away. The Subs get turned if they grow toward the light but for the most part that has been very little. The Tropicals also are placed higher in the room and the Subs stay either on the floor in trays or similar. That keeps the Tropicals warmer and the Subs a bit cooler. It has worked for us quite well for a long time and is easily accomplished given some thought as to what they really need. The only other advice I can offer is to be certain you find out the useful life span for the bulbs themselves. Ours are sold as "10,000" hours so the math says at 16 hours they "could" be effective for 625 cycles. That aside we replace bulbs every two years to assure full spectrum coverage - the bulb itself works the same as the 3 different types we use for the tortoise and although they "light" they all loose "effectiveness" with age.

Grimmy

 

[Txhorticulture]

I used to play with grow lights so maybe i can help. Bougainvillea is a tropical froM low latitudes (south america) Because of the latitude the sun is always pretty intense even in the 'winter', the sun is probably more intense than it is in ohio in the middle of summer (actually almost certainly). And the seasonal daylight hours fluctuation you experience with seasons (less daylight hours in winter) is much less pronounced where it is native. The earth's tilted axis produces extreme seasonal daylight variation at high latitudes (near poles) but not so much closer to the equator.

My point being that your plants are not adapted to seasons the way you experience them. They are not temperate plants. If they experience seasons it is from a wet dry period. Sooo.... you can always give them long days. I think 16 hrs on 8 off is fine.

I like your little light cart and I don't want to discourage you but even though the light may look bright it really isn't bright for a plant. The human eye is a very poor judge of light intensity... if it's in your sun room it may actually block more light than it makes. You might want to buy a light meter. They are not expensive.

 

[sorce]

I think the difference from no artificial light will be noticable.

You may even be able to get away with just having them on from sundown till 10 ish , and maybe 5am til 8am.

That is another California echo.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

My BRT and ficus lights are on 15 to 16 hours a day.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Tough call honest. I will explain what we do with Tropicals and Sub Tropical plants and why but as yet not with Bougainvillea. They all get 16 hours a day of similar light to what you will be providing. They will however have different placement. Our tropicals nestle in as close to the lights as they can without burning them. The Sub Tropical plants get the same hours for ease of application, all being on 1 - 2 timers. They are however kept further away from the lights, most being 2 - 4 feet away. The Subs get turned if they grow toward the light but for the most part that has been very little. The Tropicals also are placed higher in the room and the Subs stay either on the floor in trays or similar. That keeps the Tropicals warmer and the Subs a bit cooler. It has worked for us quite well for a long time and is easily accomplished given some thought as to what they really need. The only other advice I can offer is to be certain you find out the useful life span for the bulbs themselves. Ours are sold as "10,000" hours so the math says at 16 hours they "could" be effective for 625 cycles. That aside we replace bulbs every two years to assure full spectrum coverage - the bulb itself works the same as the 3 different types we use for the tortoise and although they "light" they all loose "effectiveness" with age.

Grimmy

Would really love to see a photo of your system Grimmy!

 

[Cadillactaste]

I used to play with grow lights so maybe i can help. Bougainvillea is a tropical froM low latitudes (south america) Because of the latitude the sun is always pretty intense even in the 'winter', the sun is probably more intense than it is in ohio in the middle of summer (actually almost certainly). And the seasonal daylight hours fluctuation you experience with seasons (less daylight hours in winter) is much less pronounced where it is native. The earth's tilted axis produces extreme seasonal daylight variation at high latitudes (near poles) but not so much closer to the equator.

My point being that your plants are not adapted to seasons the way you experience them. They are not temperate plants. If they experience seasons it is from a wet dry period. Sooo.... you can always give them long days. I think 16 hrs on 8 off is fine.

I like your little light cart and I don't want to discourage you but even though the light may look bright it really isn't bright for a plant. The human eye is a very poor judge of light intensity... if it's in your sun room it may actually block more light than it makes. You might want to buy a light meter. They are not expensive.

Well...they did okay for winter in the past. Just slightly longer internodes and slightly larger leaf. Before I jump in with both feet. I plan on seeing how the system works. I know already I won't lose established rooted
Trees in there. If there seems an issue then inmay look into what you mentioned. I do appreciate your thoughts and its food for thought.

In Honduras Bougianvillea grow like weeds...but as well have seen HUGE THICK TRUNK TREES on many. The tree at the guest house we stay in during transition to and from village has an amazingly old mature tree. It's the first one we seen there. The bracts mesmerized my entire family with their coloring...yet looking like a leaf. The sun sets around 6ish and rises the same time. And amazingly at a quick short time. One can easily miss the sunset. To witness one is a rare treat. We're usually busy with mission work when it happens. So I grasp that Ohio is night and day in climate differences. But...they still share their amazing bracts with me.

 

[LanceMac10]

No lights on this one, I just use a couple of T5's on the small figs I have. I do have everything in front of a massive south facing window though. This is growth during it's time indoors. Photo from Feb.