Trident Dug @ Muranaka's

[amethystearth]

I am very jaded because it is cheaper for me to just buy another better piece of material. I do understand why making two trees from one would be prudent for those without easy access to material. But the addage that making something superior to that you bought must still be the measure of success. If not, then becoming a layering expert is in your future while you still move on choosing crappy material in the first place.

I would rather never do a layer, or get better at it, and work with what I bought because I made such a great choice.

as people gain experience this is what is usually concluded I see. Layering is a great concept but when you're talking about setting your tree back years it's not as appealing. Many newbies think that since bonsai takes patience anything goes since you'll be waiting anyways

 

[JoeR]

I see both sides of the argument equally.

People such as me have time but have little access to material at all, let alone good material.

On the other side, people like you seem to have less time but access to tons of good material.

Its not that I prefer quantity over quality, it's just that I suppose I'm conserative with what little I have. You have to understand my POV as well. I do see how it's a setback and a waste of time for you.

 

[Smoke]

I see both sides of the argument equally.

People such as me have time but have little access to material at all, let alone good material.

On the other side, people like you seem to have less time but access to tons of good material.

Its not that I prefer quantity over quality, it's just that I suppose I'm conserative with what little I have. You have to understand my POV as well. I do see how it's a setback and a waste of time for you.

North Carolina is not a wasteland on bonsai material. There is good material there I'm sure. Many times good material comes down to price. I understand that as well. This sparks a new discussion. I will be starting that thread shortly.

 

[amethystearth]

I see both sides of the argument equally.

Its not that I prefer quantity over quality, it's just that I suppose I'm conserative with what little I have. You have to understand my POV as well. I do see how it's a setback and a waste of time for you.

I get that. That's why most of my stuff is dug up. I can't afford to spend hundreds on a tree or material. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. It's not a bad thing necessarily to use plenty of what's available to you in the face of frugality

 

[coh]

Buying a tree that needs layering is not always a waste of time, that's just a silly statement. A few years ago I bought a nice deshojo maple that had a good base and a nice start with low branches for an informal broom style. The top was leggy and untrained and couldn't be used with what was on the bottom but it had an interesting, contorted trunk...so I layered off the top and now also have a piece of material with a very interesting trunk to work on in addition to the main tree. I could have just chopped the top off and saved a year, but it was worth the wait in my opinion.

In this particular case, you can layer this year above the intended chop. You lose one year on the development of the main tree but potentially gain a new tree that can then be layered or chopped as desired. Ultimately you could have a bunch of material to develop from one tree and you only lose 1 year working with the main tree. Nothing wrong with that approach.

 

[JoeR]

North Carolina is not a wasteland on bonsai material. There is good material there I'm sure. Many times good material comes down to price. I understand that as well. This sparks a new discussion. I will be starting that thread shortly.

There is good material here.
I'm just not the person to ask a stranger If I can dig trees up on his land or go around looking for collection permits. There's really nice trees that
I could collect which would make beautiful bonsai that I see every day driving. Pines, maples, oaks, sometimes even junipers.

 

[Smoke]

Buying a tree that needs layering is not always a waste of time, that's just a silly statement. A few years ago I bought a nice deshojo maple that had a good base and a nice start with low branches for an informal broom style. The top was leggy and untrained and couldn't be used with what was on the bottom but it had an interesting, contorted trunk...so I layered off the top and now also have a piece of material with a very interesting trunk to work on in addition to the main tree. I could have just chopped the top off and saved a year, but it was worth the wait in my opinion.

In this particular case, you can layer this year above the intended chop. You lose one year on the development of the main tree but potentially gain a new tree that can then be layered or chopped as desired. Ultimately you could have a bunch of material to develop from one tree and you only lose 1 year working with the main tree. Nothing wrong with that approach.

Cool, but we wern't talking about your tree. We/I were talking about the tree in this thread. I have layered the tops out of tree before also. There is a time and place for everything in bonsai and I would be the first one to agree with you. For the sake of argument here, lets just stick with apples and apples for now.

BTW I for one would love to see the progression of the taking out the top of your tree. I would like to see a new thread about it.

 

[Smoke]

There is good material here.
I'm just not the person to ask a stranger If I can dig trees up on his land or go around looking for collection permits. There's really nice trees that
I could collect which would make beautiful bonsai that I see every day driving. Pines, maples, oaks, sometimes even junipers.

I just started a thread that has nothing to do with digging material on other peoples property nor permits. Digging material from urban settings is not always what its cracked up to be.

 

[coh]

Cool, but we wern't talking about your tree. We/I were talking about the tree in this thread. I have layered the tops out of tree before also. There is a time and place for everything in bonsai and I would be the first one to agree with you. For the sake of argument here, lets just stick with apples and apples for now.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize we had to stick to the tree in this thread. I was just responding to your original, generalized statement. In case you can't remember:

I see this layer out for more trees all the time and its just such a waste of time.

But yeah, from now on we can stick to the tree in this thread (and my comments still apply)

 

[Smoke]

Here is the quote in its entirety not just cherry pick the part you don't agree with.

"One has to figure your time and the inability to work on the tree while all the layering is being done to the tree only to end up with a couple of non tapered segments of tree that will take additional chops to improve those. I see this layer out for more trees all the time and its just such a waste of time."

If you notice I am referring to trees with non tapered segments or more trees which will need more work than their worth. If you have a tree with a good top that is not needed than it makes sense to take it out. If you wish to debate good trees versus bad trees we can do that in another thread.

 

[Dav4]

The whole "layering stock because 2 trees are better then 1" perspective is flawed. The reason to layer a tree isn't to have more material but to improve the material. I would only air layer a tree if the top of the tree would be a significantly better tree then what I'm starting with as a whole. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you can't really move the bottom half of a layer forward artistically while the layer is in place...in essense, you're losing a year of development. If you want more material, get in touch with Matt Ouwinga and buy a bunch of his maple seedlings. Tridents, grown out in the ground, will easily put on more then an inch of trunk girth each year. Buy 50, wire some movement into the trunk and plant them out. In 3 or 4 years, you'll have loads of material to work with.

 

[ColinFraser]

Well, whether Bonsai material 'wastelands' exist or not, I am certainly not in one. Well started tridents in one gallons cans are in the $single-digits at George's place, I am surrounded by wholesale and retail landscape nurseries, and the Internet is a wonderful thing, so needing to multiply my existing trees is not an issue.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with the sentiment that a layer probably isn't worth the effort (or lost time) in this case. I also think chopping off and mulching 80-90% of this tree would also serve to remind me the next time I'm shopping . . . Like I said, a "teachable moment."
I'll post my next move soon.

 

[M. Frary]

Well, whether Bonsai material 'wastelands' exist or not, I am certainly not in one. Well started tridents in one gallons cans are in the $single-digits at George's place, I am surrounded by wholesale and retail landscape nurseries, and the Internet is a wonderful thing, so needing to multiply my existing trees is not an issue.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with the sentiment that a layer probably isn't worth the effort (or lost time) in this case. I also think chopping off and mulching 80-90% of this tree would also serve to remind me the next time I'm shopping . . . Like I said, a "teachable moment."
I'll post my next move soon.

Now, where's that saw?
Hit 'em hard and hit 'em low!

 

[barrosinc]

The whole "layering stock because 2 trees are better then 1" perspective is flawed. The reason to layer a tree isn't to have more material but to improve the material. I would only air layer a tree if the top of the tree would be a significantly better tree then what I'm starting with as a whole. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you can't really move the bottom half of a layer forward artistically while the layer is in place...in essense, you're losing a year of development. If you want more material, get in touch with Matt Ouwinga and buy a bunch of his maple seedlings. Tridents, grown out in the ground, will easily put on more then an inch of trunk girth each year. Buy 50, wire some movement into the trunk and plant them out. In 3 or 4 years, you'll have loads of material to work with.

it all depends... I have one of the 4 deshojos in Chile... the other three (I think) will never even be seen by me, I know who has them but he is kinda uptight when he has to share. I do not want to loose the species and I want to make more of this tree, at least 3 smaller airlayers are du to this tree that I am letting to grow unchecked.

 

[edprocoat]

Now, where's that saw?
Hit 'em hard and hit 'em low!

I see you studied at the Vince Lombardi School of Bonsai .

ed

 

[Dav4]

it all depends... I have one of the 4 deshojos in Chile... the other three (I think) will never even be seen by me, I know who has them but he is kinda uptight when he has to share. I do not want to loose the species and I want to make more of this tree, at least 3 smaller airlayers are du to this tree that I am letting to grow unchecked.

Sure, in your instance it makes sense, particularly when your considering hard to find cultivars. Here in the USA, one can give Matt O a call and order a bunch of trident and Japanese maple seedlings for less then $50.

 

[0soyoung]

... you can't really move the bottom half of a layer forward artistically while the layer is in place

I really don't understand why this would be. Certainly, there is no horticultural reason for it.

 

[Dav4]

I really don't understand why this would be. Certainly, there is no horticultural reason for it.

It's just been my experience. I've performed many layers on maples and the base doesn't do much of anything that growing season. Chop a maple and the tree will usually explode with growth.

 

[coh]

The whole "layering stock because 2 trees are better then 1" perspective is flawed. The reason to layer a tree isn't to have more material but to improve the material. I would only air layer a tree if the top of the tree would be a significantly better tree then what I'm starting with as a whole. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you can't really move the bottom half of a layer forward artistically while the layer is in place...in essense, you're losing a year of development. If you want more material, get in touch with Matt Ouwinga and buy a bunch of his maple seedlings. Tridents, grown out in the ground, will easily put on more then an inch of trunk girth each year. Buy 50, wire some movement into the trunk and plant them out. In 3 or 4 years, you'll have loads of material to work with.

Dave, you've lived in the "north", you should know that growth rates are not equal. What you can accomplish in California, or Georgia, might take twice as long here in western NY, or Minnesota. So it could make sense for someone in one of those colder areas to spend a year layering off the top of a tree like the one in the original post. Lots of variables to consider, I don't think there is a single answer that fits every case (like with most things).

 

[Dav4]

Dave, you've lived in the "north", you should know that growth rates are not equal. What you can accomplish in California, or Georgia, might take twice as long here in western NY, or Minnesota. So it could make sense for someone in one of those colder areas to spend a year layering off the top of a tree like the one in the original post. Lots of variables to consider, I don't think there is a single answer that fits every case (like with most things).

Actually, I struck and grew several trident cuttings in my yard in USDA zone 6 MA for about 7 years. They easily put an inch in girth on their trunk each season. In the ground, they will grow with their normal vigor in zone 6...and I bet you could grow them in zone 5, though they'd probably have some winter die back if grown in an exposed location. Here's a picture of one of the tridents after I tired of trying to ground layer it and turned it into a cutting again....may it rest in peace. That's a size 12 sandal next to it...grown in the ground in MA for maybe 7 years.