"V" Notching Made Easy

[Smoke]

Here is a technique that I prefer, because the effect is natural. Kathy teaches it, I like to call it the "grip & rip". I was told that sap flow is stronger on the bottom of the branch, so it's less stressful.

Rather than notch from below, cut deeply from above at the "collar" of the branch, where it joins with the trunk. Then, carefully, and with control, break it downward until the right angle is achieved. I used a piece of chopstick to hold the break open on this JBP, and a guy-wire for a couple years until it held the position. The chopstick wedge is still there. This was done in the fall of '11, and the photos are from today; nearly 3 years later, and the branch is very sturdy.

...ditto...

 

[A Random User]

I was asked to put up some pics of trees that I worked on using this process.
So, I thought this one might be the best to see the development and how
some very large branches over an inch in diameter were bent using this process.

The first is the tree a year or two after I first acquired it, and really had not
done any thing to it other than trim, and learning how to thread graft, which is
evident by the pots hanging off it.

The second is a pic of the tree a year later, when I had "V" notched the top
apex trunk, which if one compares it to the first pic you will see the top trunk of
the tree no longer has a straight up and down stove pipe look, and has now been
brought down to the left, which also further compacted the height of the tree.
Unfortunately the notch that was done was not done very well, it was a learning
step and will still take some years to heal over completely. But, one has to start
somewhere.

In the third pic one will see that both of the main thick branches have been "V"
notched back at the base of the trunk and have been brought down quite drastically,
further compacting the size and look of the tree. These are very thick branches, over an
inch in diameter, and this was done last year doing the exact same process as described
in the original post. These will take a little time to heal, but not much.

The forth pic is one taken tonight, after reducing all the foliage back to the first set of leaves.
If one looks on the main left branch you will see that compared to the third pic, the end of the
branch has been notched and brought down further... This I did yesterday. It still needs to
have the finer branches at that end re-wired to suit the new angle, but this will have to wait
for a while as to not to disturb the branch.

This tree has been a true soldier !!! It has put up with a lot of abuse and hasn't missed a
beat... Has a lot more abuse to go through yet, but it's got direction now. Which in the earlier
days wasn't always the case, I will always treasure it because it really has been the best learning
tool in Bonsai I ever had. Mistakes... scars and all !!!

 

[A Random User]

Here is a technique that I prefer, because the effect is natural. Kathy teaches it, I like to call it the "grip & rip". I was told that sap flow is stronger on the bottom of the branch, so it's less stressful.

Rather than notch from below, cut deeply from above at the "collar" of the branch, where it joins with the trunk. Then, carefully, and with control, break it downward until the right angle is achieved. I used a piece of chopstick to hold the break open on this JBP, and a guy-wire for a couple years until it held the position. The chopstick wedge is still there. This was done in the fall of '11, and the photos are from today; nearly 3 years later, and the branch is very sturdy.

You will see that Thams posted this technique in post #11.
And in post #14 I brought up the point that if one wants to further
the bend at a later time, doing this technique will only further the opening...

Side note I have done the process you describe and on some material,
this opening does not heal over, and one just has a big opening.

So, I guess it is a trade off, do you want a bulge that is visible from the
top, or a big hole that is visible from the top ???

Will take some pics tomorrow to post up.

 

[bonsaiBlake]

This has been something I've been researching heavily as of recent. I'm working on a plan for my Alberta spruce and I think guy wires/combination of both notching methods mentioned in this thread, first under notching then 1-2yrs later upper notching using guy wires to hold in place and regular wiring for finish shaping(secondary/teriary branches only)I think this will be the only effective way to get DAS to have the appearance of downward growing branches, thus an older looking tree. Though much more effort it will be worth it, I hope.

Thanks for this thread Stacey. Helped clear up some ?'s I've been having.

 

[bonsaiBlake]

Off topic but related: Has anyone ever tried a bark graft. I'm envisioning a skin graft but with bark. Like if you do a chop maybe harvest a strip of bark from the watse part and apply it over cut wounds, wrapping with spag and raffia/fabric. It seems like this could speed up asthetic issues much faster. I plan on trying this and will you guys know the results. It's going to take some time i'm sure of that. Just wanted to know if any of you guys had ever attempted something like this.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You will see that Thams posted this technique in post #11.
And in post #14 I brought up the point that if one wants to further
the bend at a later time, doing this technique will only further the opening...

Side note I have done the process you describe and on some material,
this opening does not heal over, and one just has a big opening.

So, I guess it is a trade off, do you want a bulge that is visible from the
top, or a big hole that is visible from the top ???

Will take some pics tomorrow to post up.

Yes, I read the thread, the link to the technique that Thams posted, along with Jerry's drawings, then shared my thoughts and photographic results with a couple techniques.

Having tried both, I will say that both techniques are useful tools in specific situations, and that with pines and junipers particularly, the "grip & rip" technique produces a natural result that I prefer.

I'd also recommend that when applying a guy wire as shown in post 1, you join the wires at the top, bottom, or end of the branch, rather than the side. This keeps the torque in the direction of the bend and not side to side.

 

[ABCarve]

This is a notch job on my Bay tree. It heeled OK...but....it probably wasn't a good candidate for it. I don't like the way it interrupts the natural flow of the branch growing up and a now noticeable reverse taper under it. Probably would have been better leaving it alone.

 

[lordy]

I'd also recommend that when applying a guy wire as shown in post 1, you join the wires at the top, bottom, or end of the branch, rather than the side. This keeps the torque in the direction of the bend and not side to side.

Brian, I dont understand your reason here. Could you please explain? Is the torque you refer to the twisting of the wire, or bending the branch (not really torque). If the wire is joined at the top or bottom, how do you protect the branch with a piece of tubing? I guess I'm dense this morning.

 

[lordy]

This is a notch job on my Bay tree. It heeled OK...but....it probably wasn't a good candidate for it. I don't like the way it interrupts the natural flow of the branch growing up and a now noticeable reverse taper under it. Probably would have been better leaving it alone.

was this a bottom notch, or from the top like Meislik's?
BTW, the rev. taper isnt too bad in my eyes.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian, I dont understand your reason here. Could you please explain? Is the torque you refer to the twisting of the wire, or bending the branch (not really torque). If the wire is joined at the top or bottom, how do you protect the branch with a piece of tubing? I guess I'm dense this morning.

Torque being when twisting the wire at the side as opposed to pulling and tightening in the direction of the bend. Attach the guy wire, move the branch, then twist the wire to take up the slack. The Ryan Neil video shows this several times, always tightening at the end, top, or bottom of he branch.

Yes, protect the branch with a piece of tubing. Cut a notch in the tubing, and run one end of the wire through each side of the tube, and out the notch, so you can grab and twist the ends.

 

[Poink88]

Brian, I dont understand your reason here. Could you please explain? Is the torque you refer to the twisting of the wire, or bending the branch (not really torque). If the wire is joined at the top or bottom, how do you protect the branch with a piece of tubing? I guess I'm dense this morning.

His point applies IF you tighten the wires through the joint since you will in a sense pulling the wire only from that side. It is okay if the wire easily slide through the branches but that is mostly not the case. However, if you just tighten by twisting the two parallel wires together (with a nail or something similar) the torque will be even. Problem with this is the run you get is very limited.

 

[ABCarve]

was this a bottom notch, or from the top like Meislik's?
BTW, the rev. taper isnt too bad in my eyes.

It was a bottom notch. It took one season to knit back together. It would still be healing (if ever) if I used a top cut as they are very slow to heal. The trick was cutting an equilateral triangle for the notch so cadmium lines up. I also slightly hollowed one side of the heartwood with a gouge to make a good fit for the cadmium.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Guy wire demo...
Aquarium tube protects the branch, which is represented here by the chopstick.

 

[Poink88]

Good thread.

BTW, another good guy wire cushion for larger branches are chopped up water hose. Cut a 1" long piece and either slice in half or just slit one side. Works great.

 

[Vin]

Guy wire demo...
Aquarium tube protects the branch, which is represented here by the chopstick.

I'm not saying this is better but I've been using screen spline and all you need to do is make a single cut lengthwise a little less than half the diameter of the branch. The spline is flexible enough that once you begin to tighten the wire the cut sort of lays open. I don't think I'm doing anything wrong as the branch remains protected. Your thoughts?

 

[A Random User]

Yes, I read the thread, the link to the technique that Thams posted, along with Jerry's drawings, then shared my thoughts and photographic results with a couple techniques.

Having tried both, I will say that both techniques are useful tools in specific situations, and that with pines and junipers particularly, the "grip & rip" technique produces a natural result that I prefer.

I'd also recommend that when applying a guy wire as shown in post 1, you join the wires at the top, bottom, or end of the branch, rather than the side. This keeps the torque in the direction of the bend and not side to side.

Can you show us a picture of a Juniper from top where you have done this procedure ?
The reason why I ask is that with Pine that will end up having a heavy fissured bark,
you can hide just about every wound, but with trees that don't have this heavy bark
like a juniper this is not the case.

Also, seeing the main sap flow is stronger on the bottom, you posted in your previous
thread, how long then does a cut or break at the top of the branch take to heal over ? And does it ?

As far as the "torque" of my wiring process... I can only assume you are referring to
where the ends join ? That instead it should be on top or bottom, or at the end for more
evenly distributed torque ? This is incorrect... the torque in my process is my hand pushing down on
the branch. The tightening of the wire is only to secure it in place. I don't pull with the wire,
so I have no need to be concerned with side to side motion.

Lastly, can you please define your word "Sturdy" in your previous post, where you described
your branch that had the top cut instead. Reason why I asked is that when I went out to
feed my outside cats this morning, I went over to one of the branches that I purposely broke
down and re-set as you have done and still to this day it is easily bendable... This break was
on a Buttonwood that I did 4 yrs ago... So, perhaps your definition of sturdy and mine are two
different things ?

I am not trying to attack or be insulting with this post, I just would like to put the evidence for
both scenarios out there, for I too have done both and will tell you, I have not come to the same
conclusions as you have. Obviously Ryan Neil and Peter Warren and I am sure a slue of Japanese
masters, seeing that they both were trained over there, have not either.

 

[Poink88]

Also, seeing the main sap flow is stronger on the bottom, you posted in your previous
thread, how long then does a cut or break at the top of the branch take to heal over ? And does it ?

Most of the "healing" will be provided by the sap flow from the main trunk in this case (above the cut and not from the branch). Of course the branch will help too.

 

[A Random User]

Most of the "healing" will be provided by the sap flow from the main trunk in this case (above the cut and not from the branch). Of course the branch will help too.

Sorry, but I would have to disagree... the tree's energy is not going to go above a cut
and then back down. If this was the case, all the deadwood I have ever created and caused
above a branch would of killed off the branch below. This is not how the flow of nutrients
to a branch is provided.

 

[Poink88]

Sorry, but I would have to disagree... the tree's energy is not going to go above a cut
and then back down. If this was the case, all the deadwood I have ever created and caused
above a branch would of killed off the branch below. This is not how the flow of nutrients
to a branch is provided.

Please read my post again, I didn't say it will go above the cut. It will flow down from the top (main trunk above the cut).

 

[lordy]

Guy wire demo...
Aquarium tube protects the branch, which is represented here by the chopstick.

A picture (or 4 or 5) is worth a thousand words. I may have to coin that phrase. Kinda catchy!
I've never seen that method of the tubing cut for the joint at the top or bottom. I just do it on the side an use a chopstick to apply torque to the guy wire. I would think using your hand to apply pressure to the bending branch would be less than precise, however I generally use the method I described on things that grow slowly like boxwood. That and I have never used the notch-to-bend technique.
This is a particularly well-packed thread full of useful ideas. Thanks to all contributors!