"V" Notching Made Easy

[Poink88]

[video=youtube;gGxQsQd_2hE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGxQsQd_2hE&feature=youtube_gdata[/video]

They say a picture tells a thousand words... well here is a movie.

I took a piece of foam board, cut it 3/4 the way through and did
a strength test, testing both the notch on top as well as the notch
on bottom... Now granted, this is not in a scientific lab and it's not
been done under ideal conditions, but does it really need to be ???
I will let you decide...

EDIT*** Now to be fair, I guess I should of did a test of objects
flying up and hitting it... But seeing that in Bonsai we wire our
branches for the most part down...

This does bring up a good point though... If you wire branches up,
then you, I guess should cut on the top ???

The BIG difference is that this board is not fibrous like wood. Strength is totally different and cutting wood across the grain weakens it a lot (like in a V cut). It may look the same on the top notch but it isn't because most of the fibers are still continuous...you are just peeling some of them away from the junction point.

You really need to do this to understand it...doesn't have to be on a bonsai either.

BTW, watch Bill's video well and note where he is making the top notch (we call this area the "crotch")...move farther out a bit and the results could be catastrophic (i.e. a severed branch once pulled...it is that critical).

 

[papymandarin]

i did it on my coral bark maple (actually more a combination of "below notch" and hollowing of the branch to make it more flexible), which first branch was sticking rather straight up with no movement, it healed well in one year (letting the branch grow freely after work helps of course), there is a little bump now after healing at the site of the cut but still it looks better than before

pictures before the work, just after the work and 2 years later

 

[A Random User]

The BIG difference is that this board is not fibrous like wood. Strength is totally different and cutting wood across the grain weakens it a lot (like in a V cut). It may look the same on the top notch but it isn't because most of the fibers are still continuous...you are just peeling some of them away from the junction point.

You really need to do this to understand it...doesn't have to be on a bonsai either.

BTW, watch Bill's video well and note where he is making the top notch (we call this area the "crotch")...move farther out a bit and the results could be catastrophic (i.e. a severed branch once pulled...it is that critical).

Sorry, but you are incorrect.
It has nothing to do with whether or not it is a board or piece of wood.
Or whether it is cut across the grain or not.
It has to do with engineering and science, and most of all an understanding
of resistance. Which is what I stated in my opening statement.

If you try and push one object against another you are going to face a resistance...
Why ??? Ummm... because there is an object in the way.
Now if you push one object and it does not come into contact with another...
What happens ??? Ummm... it keeps going...
This is not Rocket Science people, in fact it's more like what one learns in
the 2nd or 3rd grade.

I am not telling folks which side to cut on through this demonstration, I think they
can figure that out for themselves... I am merely addressing the fact that some
think that cutting on the top is stronger, and this is scientifically untrue. It is not.
And this is not an "opinion".

 

[coh]

I am not telling folks which side to cut on through this demonstration, I think they
can figure that out for themselves... I am merely addressing the fact that some
think that cutting on the top is stronger, and this is scientifically untrue. It is not.
And this is not an "opinion".

I just went back and scanned through the entire thread. Several have offered reasons for using the top cut technique as opposed to the bottom cut method, but I didn't see anyone claiming that cutting on the top is stronger. Just that there might be situations where it would be preferred (more natural appearance perhaps, avoiding cutting of veins, etc).

As for your demonstration...I'm not going to argue the point about manufactured foam board versus wood, but the demonstration falls far short in that it does not account for the healing of the wound. A cut from above may always be weaker than a cut from below for the situation when a force is applied to the branch from above. But, in my mind, the question is not is it weaker, but is it so much weaker that it is likely to be a problem in the future? I seriously doubt either branch will be damaged severely if someone drops a roll of masking tape on it 5 years down the road. Now maybe if someone forgets (or is unaware) about the top cut, and tries to pull the branch down further it might split again at the crotch, I don't know. But when I see long time experienced professionals using the technique, it tells me that it is a very valid approach.

Chris

 

[Poink88]

Sorry, but you are incorrect.
It has nothing to do with whether or not it is a board or piece of wood.
Or whether it is cut across the grain or not.
It has to do with engineering and science, and most of all an understanding
of resistance. Which is what I stated in my opening statement.

If you try and push one object against another you are going to face a resistance...
Why ??? Ummm... because there is an object in the way.
Now if you push one object and it does not come into contact with another...
What happens ??? Ummm... it keeps going...
This is not Rocket Science people, in fact it's more like what one learns in
the 2nd or 3rd grade.

I am not telling folks which side to cut on through this demonstration, I think they
can figure that out for themselves... I am merely addressing the fact that some
think that cutting on the top is stronger, and this is scientifically untrue. It is not.
And this is not an "opinion".

I am not arguing about the strength in relation to the cut...just that your demo is not an accurate depiction of what really happens in relation to the 2 techniques and where the stress really are.

I know these stuff...being an engineer who work on very similar situations almost regularly.

As I said, both technique have application...I just do not want someone avoid one because of a faulty or biased or misleading demonstration.

BTW, If you read & understand the last paragraph of the post you quoted...you MAY know what I mean.

 

[ghues]

A great thread thanks for posting.
I have tried this (only once -cut was from the bottom) however mine was at the junction of the branch and stem. My thinking was that the branch angle would look more natural and I’ve been told that there are a lot more Auxins at that junction (more stimulation for healing?). It was also during the growing period so sap was flowing and thus it healed nicely.
Cheers G

 

[A Random User]

I just went back and scanned through the entire thread. Several have offered reasons for using the top cut technique as opposed to the bottom cut method, but I didn't see anyone claiming that cutting on the top is stronger. Just that there might be situations where it would be preferred (more natural appearance perhaps, avoiding cutting of veins, etc).

As for your demonstration...I'm not going to argue the point about manufactured foam board versus wood, but the demonstration falls far short in that it does not account for the healing of the wound. A cut from above may always be weaker than a cut from below for the situation when a force is applied to the branch from above. But, in my mind, the question is not is it weaker, but is it so much weaker that it is likely to be a problem in the future? I seriously doubt either branch will be damaged severely if someone drops a roll of masking tape on it 5 years down the road. Now maybe if someone forgets (or is unaware) about the top cut, and tries to pull the branch down further it might split again at the crotch, I don't know. But when I see long time experienced professionals using the technique, it tells me that it is a very valid approach.

Chris

If you read post #54 John says that it will be safer when one goes to wire branches...
Which is why I did the vid.
I never said the top is not doable... quite the contrary, I have done this... I didn't put a
Rock or stone or a piece of bamboo in the hole created... but, I do have
The branches that were done this way and they are wobbly, and no future
Bending can be done on them. So, then my question would be and has been since the
Beginning, why if then we are arguing cosmetics of the look of how they heal, would you
Choose a path where you are limiting yourself to no longer being able to do any future
Work on the branch ? This kinda just screws you from future development. And I clearly
Stated previously that I have these branches and I have the problem that I am saying arised
From this and now I am stuck... my only path forward is actual removal of the branch. Which
Sucks, and I think this is not clearly being addressed... I am not going to endorse a technique
and tell people to do this and send them down the same road I am now at, when I know for an
Actual fact, seeing that I have done both... that the procedure I suggested this does not happen.
And yes one can easily bend down the branch further at any time without an issue.

If I need to provide a video of my branches, where with the touch of a finger I can easily bend
Them down and quite scarily open up the wound to the point of practically breaking, I can,
And would be happy to do so.

If you choose to bend branches this way, then fine, do it... I am not telling anyone here not too...
I have only suggested because I actually have done this and I not just guessing... that I have
Had problems with this and ill side effects and will not endorse a product that I see is flawed.
I don't do that to people. I don't recommend things I think are incorrect, and I don't
Go around telling folks it is ok to do something I haven't even done. If others want too, then
Have at it.

I don't see any point in me adding to this discussion any further. As you said, there
Are professional people who don't do this and there are ones that do... decide for
Yourself. I am not a professional, so what I say clearly doesn't matter anyways. Everyone
Has clearly made up their mind even though most have either not done it , or have only done it
It one way and I say go for it and do as thou will.
Thanks.

 

[nathanbs]

+1 for v-notch bottom of branch

 

[Poink88]

+1 for v-notch bottom of branch

Me too...
+1 for v-notch bottom of branch
But...
+1 for notch at top crotch as well.

 

[coh]

If I need to provide a video of my branches, where with the touch of a finger I can easily bend
Them down and quite scarily open up the wound to the point of practically breaking, I can,
And would be happy to do so.

I don't need video, but what species has this happened on? And are you talking about cutting into the collar (as demonstrated in Bill's video) or notching the top of a branch (essentially the opposite of the method in your first post)? The results might be different for the two techniques.

BTW, I have used the method you initially posted about a couple of times and it has worked well, no complaints.

I don't see any point in me adding to this discussion any further. As you said, there
Are professional people who don't do this and there are ones that do... decide for
Yourself. I am not a professional, so what I say clearly doesn't matter anyways. Everyone
Has clearly made up their mind even though most have either not done it , or have only done it
It one way and I say go for it and do as thou will.
Thanks.

Let's not start going down this route! It's a discussion, give and take. You presented a method, others provided alternatives. No one is saying your method is wrong or inferior, or that what you post doesn't matter. If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother reading your threads. It's been a good discussion to this point.

Chris

 

[nathanbs]

Me too...
+1 for v-notch bottom of branch
But...
+1 for notch at top crotch as well.

I agree that splitting, cutting, or tearing at the crotch can be a viable solution for a particular need. With most things in life, rules, techniques, methods, etc arent often one sized fits all nor is there many ways to skin a cat. There is "always" the best tool for the job, the best technique to accomplish a specific desired result. Its not to say that you cant walk to Mexico, on your hands, I just prefer flying by jet.

 

[A Random User]

I am not arguing about the strength in relation to the cut...just that your demo is not an accurate depiction of what really happens in relation to the 2 techniques and where the stress really are.

I know these stuff...being an engineer who work on very similar situations almost regularly.

As I said, both technique have application...I just do not want someone avoid one because of a faulty or biased or misleading demonstration.

BTW, If you read & understand the last paragraph of the post you quoted...you MAY know what I mean.

Yep, being an Architect myself, I am fully aware of how things structurally work.
And yep, my demonstration was not precise, as I mentioned when I posted it...
When I said does it really need to be... but, there were no flaws, I simply
Brought it down to the basic fundamentals, that even without notching
The top and it still having torn wood attached it will never be
As strong as a cut from below, and even you an engineer have to
Admit this. Now will it be strong... perhaps, perhaps not. So why take the
Risk if there is another option. A lot of material does not heal over wounds
Very good at all, some not at all, so relying on this as some sort of magical glue
That is going to make it stronger is not even an option. Some trees have very
strong wood and are easily broken anyways, some the wood is more flexible...
And will be able to absorb any stress and will not snap off. All factors
That must be taken into account with a top break, or cut. All of which
Really are not a factor with the bottom.
But, as I mentioned to Coh... do what ever process you want, I have put my
Experience out there and what I have found to be true. And I am content.

 

[Poink88]

I agree that splitting, cutting, or tearing at the crotch can be a viable solution for a particular need. With most things in life, rules, techniques, methods, etc arent often one sized fits all nor is there many ways to skin a cat. There is "always" the best tool for the job, the best technique to accomplish a specific desired result. Its not to say that you cant walk to Mexico, on your hands, I just prefer flying by jet.

I agree...the more tools you have in your tool box, the better.

Now that you mentioned it...maybe you should show how branch splitting is done (to muddy this thread a bit more LOL). ...or easier, just post pics of Kimura doing it.

 

[Poink88]

Yep, being an Architect myself, I am fully aware of how things structurally work.
And yep, my demonstration was not precise, as I mentioned when I posted it...
When I said does it really need to be... but, there were no flaws, I simply
Brought it down to the basic fundamentals, that even without notching
The top and it still having torn wood attached it will never be
As strong as a cut from below, and even you an engineer have to
Admit this. Now will it be strong... perhaps, perhaps not. So why take the
Risk if there is another option. A lot of material does not heal over wounds
Very good at all, some not at all, so relying on this as some sort of magical glue
That is going to make it stronger is not even an option. Some trees have very
strong wood and are easily broken anyways, some the wood is more flexible...
And will be able to absorb any stress and will not snap off. All factors
That must be taken into account with a top break, or cut. All of which
Really are not a factor with the bottom.
But, as I mentioned to Coh... do what ever process you want, I have put my
Experience out there and what I have found to be true. And I am content.

Again...if you read my entire post, you will see I agree with you (last para...the detrimental part) BUT note that the top notch (if done right) is NOT on the same location of the branch V-notch...thus the board demo is not accurate for these techniques.

 

[A Random User]

I don't need video, but what species has this happened on? And are you talking about cutting into the collar (as demonstrated in Bill's video) or notching the top of a branch (essentially the opposite of the method in your first post)? The results might be different for the two techniques.

BTW, I have used the method you initially posted about a couple of times and it has worked well, no complaints.


Let's not start going down this route! It's a discussion, give and take. You presented a method, others provided alternatives. No one is saying your method is wrong or inferior, or that what you post doesn't matter. If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother reading your threads. It's been a good discussion to this point.

Chris

I am not going down any road, I am just stating the obvious, I have
Added to this discussion all I can add. And now it is time for me to
Move on.
Thanks.

 

[Vin]

Look, the name of this thread is “V” Notching Made Easy not Crotch Ripping & Gripping or Why You Should Only Use “V” Notching. I get it, there are times when “V” Notching makes sense and there are times when other methods are more appropriate. It would sure be nice to see more comments and/or photos that add to the “education” of “V” notching so folks that want to use it as a tool are more informed. If someone wants to start another thread on one of the other methods I for one will read it thoroughly as well. Just saying... Thanks Stacey!

 

[nathanbs]

I actually like the similarity of the foam board to a tree branch. The inner heartwood is typically brittle not unlike the foam with the outer cambium being the only portion with elasticity or fiber not unlike the paper bonded on the outside of the foam.

 

[Poink88]

I actually like the similarity of the foam board to a tree branch. The inner heartwood is typically brittle not unlike the foam with the outer cambium being the only portion with elasticity or fiber not unlike the paper bonded on the outside of the foam.

I have yet have to find a tree that is representable of foam board. Maybe true for succulents.

 

[A Random User]

Look, the name of this thread is “V” Notching Made Easy not Crotch Ripping & Gripping or Why You Should Only Use “V” Notching. I get it, there are times when “V” Notching makes sense and there are times when other methods are more appropriate. It would sure be nice to see more comments and/or photos that add to the “education” of “V” notching so folks that want to use it as a tool are more informed. If someone wants to start another thread on one of the other methods I for one will read it thoroughly as well. Just saying... Thanks Stacey!

Thanks Vin..
Not trying to disagree with you, but I don't see a problem
With both being addressed. I think they are in theory both
Doing the same thing. And I think it is good to have both
Sides for one to examine and try... just because someone here
At B-Nut says something, does not mean it is correct or that
It might not work good a different way.

I just think we have reached the end... both sides have made
Their arguments for and against, and now it is just up to
Those who want too to try it!!! And try both, and come to your
Own conclusions...

The whole point of the thread was to try and show others
That this isn't really some advanced technique that only some
Bonsai master can do, but quite the contrary... it's actually very
Easy, and people like myself, who aren't some Bonsai master
Do it all the time. So, it is nothing to be afraid of !!!

The better everyone gets, the better we all get !!!

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Vin..
Not trying to disagree with you, but I don't see a problem
With both being addressed. I think they are in theory both
Doing the same thing. And I think it is good to have both
Sides for one to examine and try... just because someone here
At B-Nut says something, does not mean it is correct or that
It might not work good a different way.

I just think we have reached the end... both sides have made
Their arguments for and against, and now it is just up to
Those who want too to try it!!! And try both, and come to your
Own conclusions...

The whole point of the thread was to try and show others
That this isn't really some advanced technique that only some
Bonsai master can do, but quite the contrary... it's actually very
Easy, and people like myself, who aren't some Bonsai master
Do it all the time. So, it is nothing to be afraid of !!!

The better everyone gets, the better we all get !!!

Now that is class.

Thanks!