"V" Notching Made Easy

[Poink88]

BTW, in big branches where these notch is used I usually use turn buckle initially, much stronger and flexible than the wire (you can back it out if you see branch failure or tearing). Then replace with wire after the desired position is attained.

 

[DougB]

Should and Should Nots?

I am interested in which species these techniques should be used with and more importantly which should not. Those of you more experienced please give us the list of "should be used" and "Should not be used". Good info thanks to all.

 

[A Random User]

A picture (or 4 or 5) is worth a thousand words. I may have to coin that phrase. Kinda catchy!
I've never seen that method of the tubing cut for the joint at the top or bottom. I just do it on the side an use a chopstick to apply torque to the guy wire. I would think using your hand to apply pressure to the bending branch would be less than precise, however I generally use the method I described on things that grow slowly like boxwood. That and I have never used the notch-to-bend technique.
This is a particularly well-packed thread full of useful ideas. Thanks to all contributors!

I agree and I thank Brian for posting and contributing to the discussion !
This is why I posted, so we could get a logical discussion going.
I think what our opposing views has brought to the table is that with both
Procedures there are negative side effects of the way they heal. We can go back
And forth on this discussion over what is more desirable... but, for me, though it still
Goes back to the issue of the branch being structural sound and which way would be
Better for the long term. It does no good worrying about the cosmetic side only to
Have the branch be broken off at a later date... or to not be able to do
Future bending on the branch.

I have done quite a lot of branch bending and have broken the top
Side of the branch whether deliberately or through accident, and once
It is done it cannot be changed. Pines I will give Brian credit are able to heal
Better in this way than alot of other trees. I have had my fair share of the crotches
Rip when trying to bend a branch down and they will heal relatively wel and will
Be quite sturdy. However, any future bending is out of the question and
And one often has to tread lightly when just doing finer branch work.

I just don't think it is a very wise practice to go down this road. And I unfortunately
Have learned this the hard way and I am stuck with branches that really should
Be removed and regrown, cause I can't do anything with them.

But, this is my opinion, and Brian is entitled to his. Try both and form your
Own opinion...

 

[Poink88]

These are just techniques...tools to be used as the need arises. The more "tools"/options you have the better.

 

[Lazylightningny]

Here is a technique that I prefer, because the effect is natural. Kathy teaches it, I like to call it the "grip & rip".

Brian, do you have a tutorial of this procedure?

 

[A Random User]

BTW, in big branches where these notch is used I usually use turn buckle initially, much stronger and flexible than the wire (you can back it out if you see branch failure or tearing). Then replace with wire after the desired position is attained.

I use turn buckles sometimes as well, I don't have friends or buddies to assist,
And on big projects where it is a two person job, they are often the
Only way to get it accomplished. You can however un-twist the wire to
Back it off. I appreciate your suggestion though and glad you brought this to
The discussion because you can really do unimaginable bends with turn buckles.

 

[A Random User]

Brian, do you have a tutorial of this procedure?

I agee, and I am not being smart...
I think if you could can you please post up a tutorial so others can
See an alternative to the way I proposed. The more info, the better !!!

 

[A Random User]

This is a notch job on my Bay tree. It heeled OK...but....it probably wasn't a good candidate for it. I don't like the way it interrupts the natural flow of the branch growing up and a now noticeable reverse taper under it. Probably would have been better leaving it alone.

I too don't see the reverse taper...
I see where the main collar of the trunk is bigger down below your
Cut, but this is a natural occurrence with alot of trees. I see some
Blimping, were the scar is healing over, but personally I think you are
Reading into the reverse taper issue to much. I think if you were to
Of posted the same pic without telling anyone you had done it, you
Would be hard pressed to find someone who even noticed.
I think you did the right decision... so cheer up !!!

 

[coh]

Not trying to speak for Brian here, but I have seen a similar procedure done a couple of times. Here is a link to a discussion on IBC where Bill Valavanis lowered a main branch on a Scots Pine using this type of approach. He used a chisel to cut into the junction between the trunk and branch (from above), then pulled the branch down. He inserted a rock into the gap, then covered with cut paste and bark to disguise the wound. This was done in fall 2011. I haven't had a chance to examine the branch junction since, but will try to remember to take a look next time I'm at Bill's. Maybe if he sees this he can provide an update.

Disclaimer...I haven't tried this myself, but I have seen it demonstrated a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there's also a discussion somewhere about Bill doing this to a maple. I'll see if I can track that down.

Chris

Link: http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t7706-valavanis-open-house-demo-valavanis

 

[coh]

Link to a youtube video of Bill applying the technique to a maple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGOqHLpk_Ok

Done in May 2011...my understanding is that the branch is alive and well but I cannot remember which forum I saw that update.

Chris

Edit to add...a recent photo of the tree can be found at http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t6745-videos-of-a-maple-being-styled-by-william-n-valavanis-using-a-pine-bonsai-styling-technique I won't be able to take a look at it because someone else owns it now...

 

[wireme]

Here is a specific branch to add to the discussion. I want it to descend nearer the trunk, what would you do?

I've been planning a variation of Brian's grip and rip. The branch is also too thick relative to trunk and other branches. I was thinking to peel the top third of bark, tear down at the crotch and maybe split the Shari at the top so the proximal end sticks up a bit mimicking a natural break.

I hadn't previously considered the series of kerf cuts underneath.

I'm curious how others would tackle this one.

 

[Vin]

Well Stacey, this is another fine thread you've gotten me into

 

[johng]

Not trying to speak for Brian here, but I have seen a similar procedure done a couple of times. Here is a link to a discussion on IBC where Bill Valavanis lowered a main branch on a Scots Pine using this type of approach. He used a chisel to cut into the junction between the trunk and branch (from above), then pulled the branch down. He inserted a rock into the gap, then covered with cut paste and bark to disguise the wound. This was done in fall 2011. I haven't had a chance to examine the branch junction since, but will try to remember to take a look next time I'm at Bill's. Maybe if he sees this he can provide an update.

Disclaimer...I haven't tried this myself, but I have seen it demonstrated a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there's also a discussion somewhere about Bill doing this to a maple. I'll see if I can track that down.

Chris

Link: http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t7706-valavanis-open-house-demo-valavanis

I have done the same technique with Bill on a JRP 6-8 years ago and Kathy on a juniper 3 or 4 years ago. I don't own the pine anymore but the branch healed well and the desired effect was created very naturally. The juniper branch has also done well and created a natural effect.

I do agree that both of techniques have applications.

Personally I would not use Stacey's technique on junipers...the live veins are to valuable to the health of the branch to risk it for me...

Where as Brian, Bill, and Kathy's technique may weaken the connection of the branch to the tree in certain circumstances...the results will not damage the veins that feed the branch. I also think this technique is going to be safer in the long run when and if it is necessary to wire the secondary branches.

In my experience, whether you saw through some portion of the branch, a similar break occurs during wiring, or whatever, that branch will always have a weak spot, even if it appears to have healed...so caution is always going to be called for when training that branch in future.

I am not sure I would use either technique on an azalea. Their cambium layer is just too thin to ever heal properly...

Good thread!
John

 

[johng]

Here is a specific branch to add to the discussion. I want it to descend nearer the trunk, what would you do?

I've been planning a variation of Brian's grip and rip. The branch is also too thick relative to trunk and other branches. I was thinking to peel the top third of bark, tear down at the crotch and maybe split the Shari at the top so the proximal end sticks up a bit mimicking a natural break.

I hadn't previously considered the series of kerf cuts underneath.

I'm curious how others would tackle this one.

It is so out of scale, I am not sure I would ever be happy with it regardless of its angle?? I think I would opt to use the branch above it and create a small jin from the large branch.

John

 

[wireme]

It is so out of scale, I am not sure I would ever be happy with it regardless of its angle?? I think I would opt to use the branch above it and create a small jin from the large branch.

John

It's already pretty high up the trunk, I'd like to make it work rather than use the higher branch. That's why I was thinking Shari along the top of the branch to reduce the visual mass. I suppose that means bottom cuts are out of the question, so for this branch anyway notching at the top next to the trunk seems the way to go.

This branch was held at a better angle for a couple years but has since rebounded, also I've noticed that young Doug fir branches thicken up really fast when bent hard, that's what happened to this one, could be advantageous at times but something to be aware of.

 

[A Random User]

[video=youtube;gGxQsQd_2hE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGxQsQd_2hE&feature=youtube_gdata[/video]

They say a picture tells a thousand words... well here is a movie.

I took a piece of foam board, cut it 3/4 the way through and did
a strength test, testing both the notch on top as well as the notch
on bottom... Now granted, this is not in a scientific lab and it's not
been done under ideal conditions, but does it really need to be ???
I will let you decide...

EDIT*** Now to be fair, I guess I should of did a test of objects
flying up and hitting it... But seeing that in Bonsai we wire our
branches for the most part down...

This does bring up a good point though... If you wire branches up,
then you, I guess should cut on the top ???

 

[Vin]

I've seen the vid of Ryan's quite a while ago. When I brought up the idea of this thread I was convinced the "V" Notch should come from the bottom of the branch. Ryan's video just needed Stacey's visual and instructions to make sense for me. However, Brian brings some compelling reasons to use the "Grip & Rip" technique. I'm on the wall on this one especially since my plan was to use the technique on some of my Junipers. Is coin flipping appropriate in bonsai?

 

[A Random User]

I've seen the vid of Ryan's quite a while ago. When I brought up the idea of this thread I was convinced the "V" Notch should come from the bottom of the branch. Ryan's video just needed Stacey's visual and instructions to make sense for me. However, Brian brings some compelling reasons to use the "Grip & Rip" technique. I'm on the wall on this one especially since my plan was to use the technique on some of my Junipers. Is coin flipping appropriate in bonsai?

Sure... flipping coins are appropriate !!!
Why not ??? For what it is worth... I have junipers I have cut
On the underside, and it wasn't a problem, so this is incorrect, as well.

 

[Vin]

Sure... flipping coins are appropriate !!!
Why not ??? For what it is worth... I have junipers I have cut
On the underside, and it wasn't a problem, so this is incorrect, as well.

How long did it take for the cut to heal on your junis?

 

[coh]

They say a picture tells a thousand words... well here is a movie.

I took a piece of foam board, cut it 3/4 the way through and did
a strength test, testing both the notch on top as well as the notch
on bottom... Now granted, this is not in a scientific lab and it's not
been done under ideal conditions, but does it really need to be ???
I will let you decide...

You need to let the board grow and heal that wound for a couple of years, then try the test again.