Antique Chinese Bonsai Pots as Investment?

[Anthony]

And this is why I like the fact that K did the research on Yi Xing [ which created Tokoname ] and we
have suitable clays for producing pots.
I am not going to play that "antique" game , nor the yama yama nonsense.

It's a hobby, relaxing and inspiring.

By the way the pottery sales down here go this way, you make and display at a gallery.
Beautiful and desirable for possession, the price goes up to the hundreds and thousands.
K's teacher was clocking about $1000,00 US a piece until she retired and her basic wares
command $$$ whenever they come back up for sale.
Europeans luv em.

It's a bit of madness, glad it can be avoided by making one's own.
Have fun tutti.
Anthony

* Sifu, the trees here can only be given away and you have to prove that you can care for
them before you will even get a cutting.
Life is precious.

 

[JudyB]

we, "American Bonsai", would need an increase in bonsai enthusiasts to create that demand. Will it happen?

I think it already is happening, and gaining steam.

 

[Dav4]

Then who's Brian?

 

[M. Frary]

Oh yeah.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Then who's Brian?

Isn't that @Stickroot

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Many categories of "collectibles" have seen a huge fall-off in demand in the last 10-20 years, ranging from the low-end (Beanie Babies, Barbies, Christmas Villages, etc) through the mid-end (Hummel Figurines, German Beer Steins) to the high-end (Antiques and Art). It seems to be a generational thing; people today just aren't as likely to have curio cabinets filled with "stuff". Prices in some product categories have fallen by 80% or more - even with item categories that are over 100 years old. You have a lot of older people with extensive collections who are retiring, down-sizing, or dying, and who return their collections to the market, only to find that the buyers are scarcer while the supply has increased as others try to liquidate their collections as well. I have auction catalogs from 10 years ago showing items in some categories going for 5x what they will sell for today.

The areas where demand is still strong is the absolute high-end of the market (art and antiques over $5000) and Chinese antiques. Many old items left China in the last 50 years and now that there is a lot more disposable income in the country, the demand for older culturally relevant items is quite strong. Whether this includes Chinese bonsai pots or not, I don't know.

Strangely, the market for Japanese antiques is weak.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

Who???

Sorry brian..... I was half asleep.

My mistake

 

[Stickroot]

Then who's Brian?

Brian Kiskowski!

 

[Dav4]

 

[M. Frary]

Then who the hell is Pete?

 

[wireme]

I'm heavily invested in rotting old wooden boxes and cut down nursery pots myself, no hope for them I suppose?

 

[augustine]

I agree with Bonsai Nut about collectibles in general, even extends to fine jewelry and diamonds.

Theoretically they appreciate, you can probably get a written appraisal for a good number. Problem is you can't get the full value when you sell. Don't know about other areas in the country but the bonsai people here in Mid-Atlantic are cheap. I've tried peddling stock material in my club, I get more value giving it away to a beginner who won't kill it. (Put it on the raffle table people are lined up, ask for $20 they look at you like you're crazy.)

My bottom line is buy for your enjoyment - fine containers are very beautiful but not for resale.

 

[rockm]

Funny, they're about to release a movie that hits a lot of the same buttons as antique bonsai pot and bonsai collecting...
http://time.com/4896942/tulip-fever-history/

 

[Owen Reich]

The big problem we have in America is lack of appreciation for these old containers when paired with a highly refined tree. If you consider the (not universal) standard in Japan, your container value should be 1/3 to 1/2 the value of the tree. The Chinese have been buying back antique Chinese containers for years in Japan.

I've seen a number of bonsai related items for sale in America not sell for half or less what their price in Japan. Considering these items are consider "rare" there, they are really rare here. Ryan Bell and others are doing a good job of helping others understand the aesthetic and monetary value of antique ceramics , and some items may just not be desirable to the potential customers.

I invest in containers that are pre-1800 (Kowatari). @yenling83 , I think investing in larger antique containers is a smart move; especially if they have already made the trip across the Pacific.

 

[Gsquared]

I would agree that the antiques and collectibles market has been very capricious over the last few years. I've heard from a lot of antique dealers that the market for better vintage pottery and good furniture, that used to command ever increasing prices, has been slumping over the last several years (like to the tune of 25-30% down in lots of areas). They attribute this to the millennials whose interest in collecting stuff is much less than previous generations.

Bonsai pots have really increased in price over the last few years. (I'm talking ordinary import Japanese pots.) I took a 10 year haiatus from buying any new trees or pots when i needed to take a step back from my overgrown collection. Now that I am looking at purchasing pots again, I am surprised that they are pricier than I expected. Pots that I would pay $5-50 for are now more like $40-150. A significant increase and I wish my 401k had done similar increases, but I'm not sure I would count the market to be secure enough to risk any kind of significant investment. I do have a few antique pots, but those were flukes that I found and spent very little on (like a spectacular Meiji period semi cascade pot for $40 from the flea market. Saw its smaller twin on eBay for $600) but I wouldn't count on retiring from my pots or trees. I try, TRY to limit my purchases to things that meet 2 criteria: do I love it and can I afford it. If the answer is no to either question, the answer is no sale...hopefully.

 

[sorce]

Do others think that Bonsai Mirai will raise the bar enough to increase the cost of quality trees in the U.S.?

Watching the free streams....
I got to thinking about how easy Ryan is making it for folks to create their OWN wicked trees....
I think that increase in quality trees that are available will balance out the costs.

Plus...a look at Cable, or cell service, or insurance, etc....
The most profitable business move is a contracted monthly payment.
Ryan aint no fool.

If he continues to provide the streaming service, which I can see no end to, This influx of great trees because of it seems will keep prices hovering in the same realm of....

Whatever the buyer feels its worth!

Then who's Brian?

I thought @Stickroot was Brian?

Did this Brian thing really happen twice?

Sorce

 

[Eric Group]

Kind of a funny topic that I was thinking about today especially because I got another antique Chinese Pot today in the mail is are quality Antique Chinese Bonsai Pots a good investment? What type of appreciation in value do you think you could get per year?

Some Reasons Why I think they are:
-There is a finite amount of them
-Bonsai will likely increase in popularity over the next thirty years
-Prices for quality trees are on the rise(thinking Bonsai Mirai)

I'd tell anyone to invest wisely in Real Estate before thinking about putting significant money into Antique pots, but hey... maybe this conversation could help me convince my wife to let me buy some more

Also, while we're on the topic, please post them if you got them!

More collectables than investments IMO.

There is no standardized valuation for them. You may thibk it is worth $300 but only be able to get $100. An investment like real eatate or stocks has an actual market value- determined by what an identical/ highly similar property or stock sold for last. Pots, with such variance among value from potter to potter, based off the buyer’s tastes and needs, being a “niche” market- not just Bonsai people but Bonsai people who are also big into pots and want the antiques instead of the new ones... they are more like... comic books or paintings than investments. Doesn’t mean they aren’t valuable- indeed if sold at the right time to the right person they can command more value and show more appreciation than a stock might... but hardly in the investment category IMO.

That said- if bonsai popularity rises, you could see quick run up- think Beani Babies, or... BITCOIN! It happens every couple years... the next hot thing (basebalm cards, comics...) gets it’s day in the sun... if that happens with bonsai, cash in QUICK to realize a temporary spike in antique pot values.

 

[rockm]

I've been thinking about the value of things as I settle an estate for my parents.

Let's just say that the stuff you have is worth far far FAR less than you think it is.

Bottom line--Bonsai pots probably aren't going to hold their value when you pass, unless you find someone who knows what they are and how to re-sell them to an increasingly crowded market. Think antique bonsai pots aren't all that common?--take a look on Facebook auctions. some extremely good pots for not a lot of money and the sellers know what they are.

Your heirs aren't going to have much knowledge about bonsai pots, nor are they likely to take the time to sell them at top dollar. If you don't sell off the pots before you die, you're placing the burden on your children/relatives to squeeze the value out of them...

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Interesting, I have not thought about this but you are probably right. Do others think that Bonsai Mirai will raise the bar enough to increase the cost of quality trees in the U.S.? I think good quality trees that we have here are mostly under priced currently.

Maybe a kinda dumb question, but what do you think are quality trees? At what show level are they? Are they at show level? And if not, how far away are they?

I ask because from what's available on the auction groups on fb the prices are high in comparison to Europe. Especially the prices hobbyists ask and pay from and to other hobbyists.

For example, I sold these tree this saturday:

Vitis vinifera shohin size:



Fraxinus excelsior chuhin size:


How much would you guys pay? And knowing how pricing differs, how much do you think they sold for?

Not wanting to take away anything from the discussion, I just thought it a curious statement.

If inflation is calculated into prizes paid for pots/trees/similar items, are they still more expensive? I dunno, but I don't expect it to have risen much. Think of what a dollar would buy you 'back in the day'.
Real smort investments are probably pot and low-value cryptocurrencys

 

[rockm]

For those two? I'd pay about $40 for the grape and $60 for the group...Both levels of pre-bonsai are relatively common here.

I have no idea how much they sold for.