Bonsai Focus "Reminder"

[Anonymous User]

Don't you contribute to them? I'd be stunned if you had anything but. Equally, I'd be stunned if you said anything different, for the same reason.

No bias, just a damn good magazine and good service, a view echoed by a few others here.

I also agree that Americans have taken the polite thing too far and it does hamper honest and constructive criticism....

----Oh and I don't "bruise" that easily....come on Will....

Fair enough, we agree on a few things, and the bruise remark was a bit much.



Will

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

We are of a mind over the quailty of the mag, which I have mentioned before... and as I have said to others, I am very happy you have had a good experiance with it all. I wish the same for everyone.

V

 

[Bunsen]

In my opinion, the only arrogance here is assuming that the whole world should act, behave, and do business exactly as the Americans do. When you choose to do business with a foreign entity, you must assume that things will be slightly different and either accept it, or stop doing business with them if your sensibilities are bruised.

America is the home of "political correctness", so much so that even the mere act of commenting on a bonsai is hampered, not to mention many other things. One can't even call a spade a spade anymore, we must infer to suit-ally challenged playing cards, lol.

Seriously, Walter has tried to explain (not justify) this so often that I wonder why he even bothers, things are not the same in Europe, things are done differently and for those who wish to witness this, visit a European bonsai forum.

So you got a subscription notice that looked like a past due notice, so what? Your credit wasn't effected, no harm was done, either send a check in or don't because your delicate sensibilities were bruised.

Bonsai Europe (bonsai Focus) brings top notch, quality information on bonsai to the door steps of bonsaists in dozens of countries. It provides some of the best content out there and they constantly strive to offer even better content in each and every issue, it is a bargain even if we have to put up with a few invoices that look like past due notices.

Bottom line, it is not an American company and expecting them to act like one is like asking a Eskimo for suntan lotion and then complaining because they don't have any.

That being said, ABS Journal is a great magazine, so is International Bonsai, both are American publications. Personally I suggest everyone subscribe to all three.


As for the Gulfstream Tropical Bonsai Journal... well, I said it once here.





Will

Its poor business practice to send such an invoice. If they wish to do business in another country they should undrstand the local practices. The customer should be expected to understand the rules for magazine renewal back in the country of origin.

 

[rockm]

I cannot believe the comments that "Europeans are rude. Don't try to impose our civility on them." Good Lord, talk about selling EVERYONE short...

And as far as this goes:
"In my opinion, the only arrogance here is assuming that the whole world should act, behave, and do business exactly as the Americans do. When you choose to do business with a foreign entity, you must assume that things will be slightly different and either accept it, or stop doing business with them if your sensibilities are bruised."

Um, isn't BONSAI FREAKIN' FOCUS doing business HERE? --you have it completely bassackward. THEY RELY ON US for THEIR BUSINESS. This dilly of a statement applies to THEM.. NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS...Your bias is showing.

I've been to France, Switzerland, and the UK. NEVER have I had a bad experience in a retail establishment there. Service was always pleasant and helpful. France, believe it or not (given their legendarily bad reputation for haughty service) was among the best places I've visited as far as friendly people.--My visits were not to Paris ;-)

The "get used to it" attitude is a simple excuse for sloppy, half-assed arrogant monopolistic behavior. Companies that have cornered a market tend to act like this. "Dont' like it Eh? Where you gonna go Mr. subscriber" is NOT a company motto, nor is it any way to run a printed publication these days--any one over at BF get a look at overall subscription numbers for "hobby" mags? They ain't all that healthy. This behavior has consequences. A $50 subscription to a bonsai publication is a LUXURY expense that is paid for with discretionary income. It is not a necessity. Discretionary income is tight these days...

I actually like BF, what it does and how it does it. I had to give up the subscription a few years ago--couldn't afford it. I was contemplating asking for a subscription for Christmas this year--don't realy know if I'm going to now though.

Don't like the attitude? Subscribe elsewhere. Several more deserving (and less expensive) options have been mentioned.

 

[grouper52]

While I'm all in favor of reality, it also includes the reality that "get used to it" is not an acceptable suggestion to many people who think they can, and will, do something about the unpleasant aspects of reality they are confronted with. The venom and arrogance with which this is often hurled at others makes it doubly unacceptable.

I find this same statement used most commonly to justify the nastiness with which many people operate on the forums here and elsewhere. The trashing of trees posted without the poster specifically seeking criticism or feedback, or specifically and pointedly stating they are NOT seeking such, has been a prime example for me. This has been routinely defended, in my experience, with the attitude that if you post trees they are "fair game - get used to it", rendered in the nastiest of tones by the same people who rendered the nasty trashing in the first place, and whose behavior generally on forums tends to be nasty. As if to say, "I'm an a**hole, the internet is full of a**holes, and bonsai is full o a**holes - get used to it, buddy."

Well, that certainly may be the reality, but the reality as well is that people are often not interested in getting used to it when they can instead do something about it - like voting with their feet or their mouse. There are no serious repercussions for such attitudes or behaviors on the forums typically, but for a business selling wares or services it may certainly have a profound impact, and does not inspire confidence in the whole operation. I'm not drawn to magazines, and have no dog in this particular fight, but the attitude in a situation like this sad for those who espouse it.

 

[Walter Pall]

In the early 19seventies I worked for IBM behind the iron curtain and traveled places like East Germany, Hungary etc. on a regular basis. When I was hungry I would go to a restaurant. Big deal! Well, the 'service' there was so bad, it is beyond imagination. The restaurant was empty, the waiters were chatting in the kitchen nearby and let me wait for twenty minutes to then seat me at the worst table while everything else was empty. Then I got the menu after more than ten minutes, studied it for a while and had to shout to get the waiter to order. Whatever I ordered it was out. Thus I asked 'what is actually to be had'. Well, something that was not on the menu. So ordered it. It took longer than 30 minutes and it was cold and just disgusting. And the waiter was behaving like I was insulting him or her every time. I then paid and was used to tip whatever happened , only 1 percent though, as was the custom in West Germany at that time. Anyway, the waiter threw the tip onto the table and said, 'I am not a beggar, we don't tip here'.
This is a bit extreme, but at least two thirds of the incidences happened EVERY time I went to a restaurant. And this was about ten times a week, breakfast, lunch, dinner.
Attila can attest to this sort of situation at that time.

So what happened? Well, I tried to change the world and started to tell the waiters what I thought of this. They became very angry. Once I had to wait more than one hour until the cold meal came. I got up, took my coat and went without greeting, but hungry. I found that I lost weight and hated the whole world and especially the pompous waiters. So I started to go buy some stuff at grocery stores and eat in the car. Well, there was not much if anything to be bought in the stores. So I considered to stop this job and only work in a civilized place.

One day I had the epiphany: It was just my expectations that were wrong. If the world has the habit to not work according to your expectations most of the time, don't try to change the world, try to change your expectations.
From then on I lived in peace.
Since then I have traveled the world, was in all continents besides the Antarctic, spent more than 4 years altogether in America. My early experiences hep me a lot to try to have the right expectations and live in peace with all cultures. I am a constant wanderer between cultures since fifty years and have learned to accept things the way they are. One CAN get used to it.

I wrote this especially for Ryan because he constantly thinks I am trying to insult America when I am only telling him to change his expectations when dealing with other cultures.

 

[rockm]

Um, comparing Cold-war communist east Germany and Hungary to today's market is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

Again the emphasis here is on the wrong party.Subscribers are not looking to provide an expensive service. Subscribers are PAYING for a luxury service. Strangely, they're not exactly looking for an experience comparable to eating out in 1973 East Germany when shelling out $50 for a magazine.

Setting the standard service to Cold War Eastern Europe is a very very VERY (almost laughably) low bar. BF is selling itself at a premium price. It should act that way.

 

[Yamadori]

If any business, European, Japanese, American, or otherwise, disregards polite customer service then they will pay the price. Bottom line, they loose. If they don't care then that is their choice.

Cultural awareness is a necessary sophistication for an international business. A company can disregard this if they think their way is "the way". It is their perogative. They may pay consequences however.

Maybe BF isn't that concerned with their total customer base and they have room to loose some.

 

[Klytus]

I think the problem is that several nations have state run TV/Radio stations and people in those countries have had to acclimatise to threatenng letters and menacing demands for money in exchange for 'Entertainment'.

As far as i can tell the US never had these Socialist broadcasters and hence are unused to demanding and demeaning letters so it's a shock to see others are caught up in that 'Normalcy'.

It's a fine theory.

 

[JasonG]

As subscribers WE went to Bonsai Focus. They didn't solicit me or anyone else, as bonsaist's we wanted a magazine delivered to the house everyday so we went to them for that service. We are the ones who left for a European based business to fulfill this need therefore in doing so accept the cultural differences. After all we are the ones who seek-ed them out.

So what if they sent a letter that looked like a late notice letter, sure it isn't what we are use to but then again we are working with a company that is not of our culture. In no way did I see that to be rude, or even the response that Walter posted for us, no rudeness. Right now is a great time to be working on trees, we should focus energy there instead of replying to a thread that is for the most part a waste of time. And yes, I am guilty here too

 

[greerhw]

In the early 19seventies I worked for IBM behind the iron curtain and traveled places like East Germany, Hungary etc. on a regular basis. When I was hungry I would go to a restaurant. Big deal! Well, the 'service' there was so bad, it is beyond imagination. The restaurant was empty, the waiters were chatting in the kitchen nearby and let me wait for twenty minutes to then seat me at the worst table while everything else was empty. Then I got the menu after more than ten minutes, studied it for a while and had to shout to get the waiter to order. Whatever I ordered it was out. Thus I asked 'what is actually to be had'. Well, something that was not on the menu. So ordered it. It took longer than 30 minutes and it was cold and just disgusting. And the waiter was behaving like I was insulting him or her every time. I then paid and was used to tip whatever happened , only 1 percent though, as was the custom in West Germany at that time. Anyway, the waiter threw the tip onto the table and said, 'I am not a beggar, we don't tip here'.
This is a bit extreme, but at least two thirds of the incidences happened EVERY time I went to a restaurant. And this was about ten times a week, breakfast, lunch, dinner.
Attila can attest to this sort of situation at that time.

So what happened? Well, I tried to change the world and started to tell the waiters what I thought of this. They became very angry. Once I had to wait more than one hour until the cold meal came. I got up, took my coat and went without greeting, but hungry. I found that I lost weight and hated the whole world and especially the pompous waiters. So I started to go buy some stuff at grocery stores and eat in the car. Well, there was not much if anything to be bought in the stores. So I considered to stop this job and only work in a civilized place.

One day I had the epiphany: It was just my expectations that were wrong. If the world has the habit to not work according to your expectations most of the time, don't try to change the world, try to change your expectations.
From then on I lived in peace.
Since then I have traveled the world, was in all continents besides the Antarctic, spent more than 4 years altogether in America. My early experiences hep me a lot to try to have the right expectations and live in peace with all cultures. I am a constant wanderer between cultures since fifty years and have learned to accept things the way they are. One CAN get used to it.

I wrote this especially for Ryan because he constantly thinks I am trying to insult America when I am only telling him to change his expectations when dealing with other cultures.

Well Walter, we agree to disagree on this one. I don't except some things the way they are, I expect to be treated accordingly depending on the situation. For one , I don't tolerate rude waiters, it doesn't happen very often here in Oklahoma, some other states are worse. I get very annoyed at people talking on their cell phones sitting next to me while I'm trying to eat or carry on a conversation, so I politely ask them to hang up. I think people should acknowledge you when you hold the door open for them, I always do. I know these are nitpicking things, but they are a few of the things I have a little control over and I exercise my rights. The larger issues like politics, I can only cast my vote for the candidates that share my political views.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Is it safe to assume the only bits which aren't a waste of time are yours?

I'm not sure that's a safe assumption, so I thought I would ask.

I'm sure I'll regret being less than gracious, but the presumptive judgement that we have wasted our time, was also less than wise. So I am joining you in a momentary lack of wisdom. The very nature of a forum is open discussion. I now know more than I did before the discussion started, on a great many levels... not the least of which is reading something posted by Walter that managed to impress me (not that it matters, but it was a welcome surprise)... I wouldn't have traded that opportunity for anything.

However, I applaud the idea of moving on to tree work. I keep looking out the window and wanting to play, but it's been so darn cold, we're just finally getting to some reasonable sort of weather after a rediculous cold snap. So I look forward to being able to do some of that myself.

Kindest regards despite my lack of wisdom,

Victrinia

 

[R_F]

I wrote this especially for Ryan because he constantly thinks I am trying to insult America when I am only telling him to change his expectations when dealing with other cultures.

That sounds nice in theory. But, what you have here is a case of "everbody's doing it so I might as well too". Sorry, that doesn't work with me, I try to respect people no matter what...and when I don't I apologize. I have yet to see that sort of conduct from you.
You have insulted Americans (especially in the Karaoke bar) and I won't allow you to use cultural difference as an excuse. Now if you were unaware of the culture that would be excusable, but as the self proclaimed world traveler you ought to know better.

Back to the issue of BF. Let me make it clear again...BF's "reminder" had no ill effect on me. I do think it was a little weird and maybe even created a false sense of urgency, but I still subscribe and intend to do so again. However, if they were smart they would learn the customs of the clients they serve.

 

[Anonymous User]

Its poor business practice to send such an invoice. If they wish to do business in another country they should undrstand the local practices. The customer should be expected to understand the rules for magazine renewal back in the country of origin.

Um, isn't BONSAI FREAKIN' FOCUS doing business HERE? --you have it completely bassackward. THEY RELY ON US for THEIR BUSINESS. This dilly of a statement applies to THEM.. NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS...Your bias is showing.

Cultural awareness is a necessary sophistication for an international business. A company can disregard this if they think their way is "the way".

I was going to address the statements above, but Jason said it better than I could...So I'll just quote his response...

As subscribers WE went to Bonsai Focus. They didn't solicit me or anyone else, as bonsaist's we wanted a magazine delivered to the house everyday so we went to them for that service. We are the ones who left for a European based business to fulfill this need therefore in doing so accept the cultural differences. After all we are the ones who seek-ed them out.

So what if they sent a letter that looked like a late notice letter, sure it isn't what we are use to but then again we are working with a company that is not of our culture. In no way did I see that to be rude, or even the response that Walter posted for us, no rudeness. Right now is a great time to be working on trees, we should focus energy there instead of replying to a thread that is for the most part a waste of time. And yes, I am guilty here too

There are far worse things to worry about,


Will

 

[R_F]

As subscribers WE went to Bonsai Focus. They didn't solicit me or anyone else,

Then why do they have adds on this forum and elsewhere? I would call that soliciting.

 

[Klytus]

Reading my Marvel comics as a Teenager i was always frustrated by adverts for those damned Sea Monkeys,you couldn't buy them here.

They were tantalising.

I'm sure i could have also taken out a subscription at some astoundingly low price,if i didn't live in the remote wilderness off the edge of the US postal maps.

As it was i did get my ration of Stan Lee's words of wisdom,'nuff said.

Maybe more to be said?

http://bubblegun.com/culturepop/seamonkey.html

 

[Attila Soos]

I got the same letters as everyone else and I didn't even think twice about it. My first thought was about not missing an issue, not weather or not my feelings were hurt. In the game of life there is way more things to get worked up over and spend time on.....like trees!

Yeah, I don't even remember paying too much attention to the exact words, I just made sure that I don't forget to renew it.

When I get a bill, there are two things I look at: the due date and the amount. Everything else on a bill is irrelevant.

Being an accountant, and seing thousands of bills in a month, the "tone" of a bill is the least of my worries. What I DO worry about is whether or not I need the service/product, and whether or not I have money to pay it. I am aware that a bill is sent out to hundreds (or thousands) of people, and there is nothing remotely personal that applies to me on that bill.

A business is like a machine, designed to make money. Some parts of that machine are well designed, and other parts are not so well done.

If the magazine is useful to me, then I buy it. If not, I don't. I don't care who writes it, where it comes from, and how good is the secretary in writing reminders.

There are two kinds of products/services: personalized, and mass-produced. In the case of a personalized product or service, such as my accountant, lawywer, or personal taylor, I do care about how I am being treated. When I buy a can of milk, gasoline, or in this case, a magazine that is mass-produced, all I say is "here is my money and give me the damn thing. I don't care what you say and what you think, just hand over that magazine".

 

[mcpesq817]

If any business, European, Japanese, American, or otherwise, disregards polite customer service then they will pay the price. Bottom line, they loose. If they don't care then that is their choice.

Cultural awareness is a necessary sophistication for an international business. A company can disregard this if they think their way is "the way". It is their perogative. They may pay consequences however.

Maybe BF isn't that concerned with their total customer base and they have room to loose some.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier, but you said it in a very succinct and direct way. Well done.

Nobody is saying that businesses cannot behave the way they want to - but pissing off customers will not make it easier to attract their dollars.

Then why do they have adds on this forum and elsewhere? I would call that soliciting.

Exactly!

Being an accountant, and seing thousands of bills in a month, the "tone" of a bill is the least of my worries. What I DO worry about is whether or not I need the service/product, and whether or not I have money to pay it. I am aware that a bill is sent out to hundreds (or thousands) of people, and there is nothing remotely personal that applies to me on that bill.

I don't recall seeing one of these renewal notices, and I doubt I would have been all that offended. What did offend me was the publisher's flippant tone in the email that Walter was asked to forward. Statements implying that Americans are too provincial to understand or compromise, coupled with the dismissive tone in that the publisher was too busy to take 10 minutes to sign up for an account and post a courteous explanation regarding an issue that clearly was affecting a sizable portion of the customer base, in my opinion, show very poor business and customer service skills.

 

[rockm]

"As subscribers WE went to Bonsai Focus. They didn't solicit me or anyone else, as bonsaist's we wanted a magazine delivered to the house everyday so we went to them for that service. We are the ones who left for a European based business to fulfill this need therefore in doing so accept the cultural differences. After all we are the ones who seek-ed them out."

Huh???? So let me get this straight--if I seek you out online to buy a tree or whatever, and I have a problem with it, you're free to treat me as you wish--because I came to YOU to buy it? Sorry, but I don't accept that kind of behavior even from the cable company. I had to go to them to get service. They have the biggest system and most content around here. It's certainly not MY fault they can't get their billing straight...

We are not the ones who left for a European-based business. The European-based business BOUGHT the subscribership of an American publication. They bought BT's subscribership presumably because it was valuable. My Bonsai Today subscription morphed into Bonsai Focus. I had no input at the time. They are left as pretty much the biggest mag around and it's not MY fault...It was THEIR choice to buy BT and enter the American market. They're the ones left standing.

It was they who apparently wanted to serve North America. IF they want that, then they should actually DO it.

 

[R_F]

[...] and I doubt I would have been all that offended. What did offend me was the publisher's flippant tone in the email that Walter was asked to forward. Statements implying that Americans are too provincial to understand or compromise, coupled with the dismissive tone in that the publisher was too busy to take 10 minutes to sign up for an account and post a courteous explanation regarding an issue that clearly was affecting a sizable portion of the customer base, in my opinion, show very poor business and customer service skills.

Exactly what I thought. I wasn't offended by their reminder either, but I had the same thoughts as you on the email from BF's Publisher.