First satsuki, advice wanted

[Rivian]

Since you buried this windswept bonsai last year with the goal to make it a raft-style

I feel like we are playing a game of telephone here.

If you look at the close-up, you can see many dead aerial roots, so there is some eagerness from the plants side, and I'm considering burying it like a raft and separating rooted sections next year.

LIKE a raft. Just for propagation. Ive had bad experience with azalea cuttings.
But, if everything has rooted, I might not cut all of it into single pieces but maybe leave SOME together, for variety/experiment

You want the trunk to layer roots so you can cut off the trunk and the original root ball?

Yeah maybe I can cut it into 2 large trunks that will be upright and some smaller rooted cuttings

you want this specimen to be a good raft

finalizing the raft design

If your goal is still a raft

No, there was a misunderstanding. Please no more talk of rafts, lol.

When the flowers show, should I mark all branchlets that dont have the narrow petal and take them out?
The narrow type can produce all others later, right? But the others cant produce narrow?

 

[Glaucus]

Ah yeah, sorry about that. I thought there was a discussion last year about what would be best. But you state in the first post you want to layer then branches and separate into individual plants.
I didn't want to read through all old posts.

I think you need more time to layer the roots. And I also think that removing part of the roots of the original trunk during a repot without separating anything, could be an intermediate step.
Even if there are roots on each branch and considering azalea do not need a lot of roots, there is nu guarantee that the newly layered roots are enough to support every branchlet.
If you are really impatient, you can of course try to remove a single branch and see if there are roots.

Not completely the same thing, but one can actually root 1 year old shoots. They just root way slower and it takes more time for them to take off as individual plants. But it is possible to do hardwood rooting of azalea.

I wouldn't bother with labeling them until they are individual plants.
Those that have the narrow flowers, label them as Yumehanabi. Those that have ordinary flowers only, Kogetsu.
Those with a mix, that's a tossup. If a Yumehanabi plant really has a lot of ordinary flowers, it is a bad Yumehanabi. It is then a matter of taste if it would be better if they were all ordinary.
Normal Kogetsu never gets narrow petals. I am not sure if a Yumehanabi that goes back to Kogetsu also never again produces narrow petals. But I think that is how it works.
These odd flower sports are unstable and can revert back to normal flowers. Of course, you have the added complication that you need both colour and flower shape to be good.

 

[Rivian]

If there are bell shaped flowers on this plant, theyre rare
Im pretty happy with it overall. Seems healthy.
Rainy weather so flowers are a bit messed up
The first flowers had a very clear white where they werent red. Now, its more of a light pink. Maybe pH related because I ran out of rainwater for a while and had to use tap water. Fairly hard water

 

[Rivian]

Just bought satsukis number 2, 3 and 4 - Juko, Korin and Yata no Kagami
Juko seems solid overall
Korin for flowers
Yata no kagami for fall color

Still to get: Aozora, Kokuko no tsuki, Shiryu no mai
Maybe a solid red
Maybe some other yume-...
Maybe purple/white with narrow petals or bell

 

[Mapleminx]

You’ve been bitten by the bug . I’ve got my eye out looking for a nice Chihiro although possibly not this year.

 

[Glaucus]

Ah, the draw of a good (and healthy) Chihiro. Hard to get. Even MiniSatsuki said they have too many white flowers on Chihiro.
I have two small whips, but no flowers opened yet.

 

[Carol 83]

You’ve been bitten by the bug

Resistance is futile.

 

[Rivian]

@Deep Sea Diver or @Glaucus Not all indicums are satsuki, right? Because I also have Rhododendron indicum Macranthum which is a hardy groudcover from Esveld

 

[Glaucus]

Other way around. R.indicum is one of the species from which satsuki hybrids were created. Macrantha/Macranthum was one of the names for one of the types of R.indicum/satsuki very early on. It is still a cultivar distinction, but I suspect there are more forms under that name. Basically, it should have narrow leaves and single pink flowers. I believe in the US there is a form of 'Osakazuki' under that name. But the Esveld version is not 'Osakazuki', I believe.

 

[Rivian]

I am getting a little suspicious. They do change as they get older, right? So maybe thats why flowers on my 8 y.o. plant dont match the image I have of this variety. But so far, it looks a lot more like Koun -__________-
This is Koun:


This is Yumehanabi:

 

[Glaucus]

Yeah, it is a bit suspicious. Yumehanabi should have patterns exactly as Kogetsu. The only change is the flower shape.
White centers dominate in Kogetsu. And that should lead to pink or red tips on the thin petals. Like if the tip of the petal was dipped in red paint. (or the Japanese talk about nail pattern Tsumabeni)

The Koun pattern is odd. It doesn't follow a growth pattern (stripes, spots, triangle sectors) or the flower geometry (blotch, white centers).
This makes me think it may be a virus that causes colour to switch on. So then the coloured sector is caused by the area where the virus grows towards.
There is a video from Nuccios about Camellias where they explain the difference. And that it can in rare cases be made contagious.
It doesn't seem that this was documented at all for azaleas. And it is very rare.
Something like this could explain the patchiness of colour in Koun.

Also, Yumehanabi petals are thinner. They have like a parallel section, like a finger. Koun is star-shaped. Additionally, the leaf shape should be a little different, as Koun is a sport from the Kozan family (through Hikari no Tsukasa). I'd say this plant looks very close to how a Kozan would look.
But I have never grown Kogetsu, so I cannot say if this can not be a Kogetsu at all based on leaf shape.

 

[Rivian]

I might contact the seller then

 

[Rivian]

The seller responded with saying they noticed trees will change both color patterns and sometimes flower shapes from year to year and that they checked the images of my tree with a satsuki book and it appears to match yumehanabi.
Heres the book and page




As a reminder, here are the pics I sent them



Not sure what to believe. I guess I will consider them just generic satsuki until I see them going back to something approximating a yumehanabi. I dont agree my picture and the yume from their book match well but I suppose in Satsuki it is possible for these two to be the same variety.

 

[Glaucus]

Did they say they IDed the cultivar themselves with the book? Or did it come from Japan with the 'Yumehanabi' tag? Because it sounds like the former.

 

[Rivian]

Did they say they IDed the cultivar themselves with the book? Or did it come from Japan with the 'Yumehanabi' tag? Because it sounds like the former.

They did not say Japan but I believe they import trees from there. They just said azalea nursery
They did say they got it from there with the tag, and they also checked with the azalea book themselves after I mailed them

 

[Glaucus]

It definitely came from Japan. But they usually put on those paper white and blue tags, usually with the handwritten kanji.
And then when EU traders unload it, they don't know what the variety is.
Of course Japanese aren't immune to mislabeling, but that label would have said what it is.
I am just wondering if they sold it as 'Yumehanabi' because the label stated 夢花火
If you are interested in some more pictures of Yumehanabi:

ありらん・夢花火(2) - 皐月の花・専科

今日（8日）は天気予報が大当たりで午後から大雨でした。おかげで昨日からの農作業は中途半端なままです。マー、雪にならないだけマシなのですが、今年は雨が多く冬晴れが長続きしませんね。節分を過ぎると徐々に陽が高くなり、日差しも強くなります。皐月の根が動き出すまであと少しです。そろそろ植替えの準備を始めるかな～。掲載品種の月別一覧は・・・こちら・・・・・・・・・・ありらん（好月の枝変り）中輪・深切れ咲き、底白、爪紅、紅色無地底白と紅色無地底白爪紅☆2010年、上野に登録されています。花芸は少なく最新版の「さつき大図鑑」では紅色系底白に分類されています。底白は薄っすらと紅色が入り純白ではないようで...

blog.goo.ne.jp

And a good Koun picture:

○●◎サツキ盆栽通信◎●○

Personally, I would not trade or sell cuttings from this one as 'Yumehanabi'. For me, a plant should come labeled or IDed. And the actual flowers should match the images so it convinces me the ID is accurate. I may make an exception when something just very clearly is a certain cultivar because I know it well and it is distinct.

What would satisfy me is that for example this one came from Crespi Bonsai. And they told me they got this plant from Yamaka Engei. And then I emailed Yamaka Engei with the picture of the flowers. And they would tell me "Yes, we likely sold that plant and that is a Koun" (preferibly without bringing up Koun yourself, making them arrive at it independently). Then it would feel correct for me to sell cuttings of that plant as Koun.

Maybe customers complaining or specifically asking for cultivar IDs will make the EU sellers more careful with the cultivar IDs.
I once offered a business to ID all their handwritten tags because they were selling theirs unIDed, but the picture showed the kanji tags were still on.

There are other Japanese imports that have tags in English and including a picture. Of course, that is much better for the EU market.

 

[Rivian]

Tag only says "YUMEHANABI", on a little plastic stick. No tags on the plant as far as I remember, like orders from minisatsuki had tied to plant or pot.
Your pictures make me feel even more sure that its not yume and might be koun (dont worry I wont label it as such)

Not sure if I should pursue this further, but if theres no positive resolution I'll buy elsewhere in future

@Glaucus I have one more question, they said "According to this page your tree appears to be a Yumehanabi"
The picture does not match, so now Im wondering what the description says, can you read it? Just trying to give them favor of the doubt

 

[Glaucus]

I can't tell you how they decided to label the plant as 'Yumehanabi'.
You say now they told you "According to this page your tree appears to be a Yumehanabi" where 'this page' refers to the satsuki dictionary.
So they didn't have an ID, went through the book, found the page of 'Yumehanabi' and then labeled it as such.

I have been looking at satsuki azalea pictures for a long time now. It must be a little bit like recognizing faces for people in general, or chess positions for master level chess players.
When I saw the picture of the 2020 dictionary, I was wondering how someone had obtained a picture of my book, as it has similar wear on it, haha.
So I do not know if I see much more than a normal person not familiar with azaleas sees.
But I can tell you that your azalea does not match any 'Yumehanabi' picture, dictionary, SatsukiMania, Minisatsuki, Nagano, Satsuki Daisuki blog, etc.
This has nothing to do with 'trees will change both color patterns and sometimes flower shapes from year to year'.

And it is very close to Koun. I do not know why when you presented the seller with the evidence they didn't say "You are right, we are not sure. We tried our best to ID an unlabeled satsuki from Japan and though this ID would help inform a customer what type of flower they were buying." Sounds like the person that tried to answer your question wasn't the one that labeled this as Yumehanabi. Or they didn't remember.

Yumehanabi has these red tips and white centers. Koun has these random red patches.
Yumehanabi has these elongated petals. Koun is just a very star-shaped version of Nikko/Kozan.
Your azalea has the Kozan/Nikko star-shaped flowers with random red patches. It doesn't have elongated petals with red tips, or white centers.

I actually might label this as 'Koun' if I had this unIDed. I just want to cation people against mislabeling, because it can cause confusion. Exactly like we have here.
I can't imagine how this would have been in the past, without internet, and often without pictures at all. People tried to match cultivars based on text descriptions only.
If you see a flower like this one, you need to know why it would be Koun and why it doesn't be Yumehanabi, or vise versa.
In fact, there might be a third or fourth cultivar that I am forgetting that it could also be or be confused with.

[edit]
Sorry, I think I misread. So the Japanese did put a tag on it? And that was the same tag as you saw?
And the EU seller say they checked the dictionary and to them it looks like a match with Yumehanabi anyway?
So then you cannot really fault the EU seller. I still believe it is a mistake, though. Maybe you can ask the EU seller to ask the Japanese nursery to verify?
I would expect that if they are willing to do this they will concede that it is not Yumehanabi and therefore it must be Koun, as they know it is the only azalea they grow that looks like that.
Then you have an expert opinion to correct the ID.

 

[Rivian]

I had sent them an email on Monday, noting the differences of the varieties and politely asking them to check with their supplier. They have not responded and Im sure they will not.

In closing:
- I think a commercial (bonsai, including) satsuki seller showing complete disinterest here is very disappointing
- I dont believe their own ID was done honestly, rather it was one of a number of excuses to weasel out of this
- I dont believe they understand satsuki well
- I will not buy there again.

I can understand if theyre busy and cant invest time to ask their supplier in (maybe) Japan per email, (maybe) dealing with some extent of language barrier doing so.
Heres another way it could have been handled: Honestly check the pictures, realise I was either sold a different variety or the flowers have deteriorated to be unrecognizable so it should not have been sold as Yumehanabi,
offer a discount of 20% or more off my next purchase below 100 bucks.

Anyway, its still a nice plant and I will repot it soon. Pictures will be taken

 

[Rivian]

I have taken it apart and repotted the original trunk, but I also have a big bowl of rooted sections I still need to pot. Everything that was buried has rooted to some extent. On the trunk I prevented that with tape.
I have a tendency to propagate first and think later. Not entirely sure what I'll do with this many of them. Maybe sell some next year as generic satsuki when they flower.